Insurance - Pantaenius USA - Non Renewal

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by daletournier

.......
I couldn't get insurance for flooding, I accepted that, to me it was obvious. This is why I do not understand why boats were and are insured in hurricane zones and seasons. The rest of us now suffer due to this stupidity.

There are close to a million boats registered in Florida. Seems like too large a market for the insurance comoanies to say Sorry, you're in a hurricane zone, no insurance.. And something close to a quarter million boats registered in Queensland.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by LTCruiser

Yes, we have gone ahead with New Wave Marine in Brisbane & NSW

Wow,
Just did the online quote.
Really gotta wonder about insurance companies that'll insure boats with no survey or inspection required, just send the money.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I had a business in a town called Murwillumbah. The town was built below the flood level, only the levies saved it, but twice in the last century it was flooded.

I couldn't get insurance for flooding, I accepted that, to me it was obvious. This is why I do not understand why boats were and are insured in hurricane zones and seasons. The rest of us now suffer due to this stupidity.

My boat has been since day one a Fl boat, at least since I’ve owned it. As it’s home port is Panama City, I guess it’s assumed that it will be in Fl year round. My Insurence is quite low I think with a good deductible etc., etc. I had one small claim that they paid very, very quickly and with no hassle, and honestly I was arguing with the adjuster to not give me so much money, I could fix it for a lot less.
But I can’t go past the Bahamas. I tried, but didn’t go deep into it to get Insurence that had me in Grenada for Hurricane season, It was a 300% increase in Insurence which I could have lived with, but what really got me was the deductibles were huge for any kind of Storm, even numbered ones. I mean instead of a $500 deductible it was a $50,000 deductible or some crazy number.
It’s why we didn’t go.
My Broker couldn’t find me decent Insurence, according to them there were very few choices, majority of Insurence companies wouldn’t even write a policy regardless of price.

So I need to shop around I guess, but I don’t know where to start to be honest.
So if we head down further, I guess it will be naked Insurence wise, which makes me uncomfortable, even though I’m not one for Insurence, Other than the Military SGLI, I’ve never carried life Insurence for example, always figured I was uninsurable.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

There are close to a million boats registered in Florida. Seems like too large a market for the insurance comoanies to say Sorry, you're in a hurricane zone, no insurance.. And something close to a quarter million boats registered in Queensland.

I figured that. But north qld and the carribean arent florida or the rest of Queensland.

My point is I understand Florida, I can see how the numbers work for them but dont see how the numbers work for them in the Carribean, apparently they have taken big losses thus the numbers mustn't work, if they did their wouldn't be a problem.

I also understand people keeping their boats in Florida, I'm assuming many live there but keeping a boat in the Carribean hurricane belt and flying home comes at a greater risk than us that prudently decide not to expose ourselves to such a risk.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

My boat has been since day one a Fl boat, at least since I’ve owned it. As it’s home port is Panama City, I guess it’s assumed that it will be in Fl year round. My Insurence is quite low I think with a good deductible etc., etc. I had one small claim that they paid very, very quickly and with no hassle, and honestly I was arguing with the adjuster to not give me so much money, I could fix it for a lot less.
But I can’t go past the Bahamas. I tried, but didn’t go deep into it to get Insurence that had me in Grenada for Hurricane season, It was a 300% increase in Insurence which I could have lived with, but what really got me was the deductibles were huge for any kind of Storm, even numbered ones. I mean instead of a $500 deductible it was a $50,000 deductible or some crazy number.
It’s why we didn’t go.
My Broker couldn’t find me decent Insurence, according to them there were very few choices, majority of Insurence companies wouldn’t even write a policy regardless of price.

So I need to shop around I guess, but I don’t know where to start to be honest.
So if we head down further, I guess it will be naked Insurence wise, which makes me uncomfortable, even though I’m not one for Insurence, Other than the Military SGLI, I’ve never carried life Insurence for example, always figured I was uninsurable.

You get comfortable with it..lol.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by daletournier

My point is I understand Florida, I can see how the numbers work for them but dont see how the numbers work for them in the Carribean, apparently they have taken big losses thus the numbers mustn't work, if they did their wouldn't be a problem.

I think that is it in a nutshell, the numbers didn’t work, and I believe what skewed them somewhat is from what I’ve seen of photos posted here, the Charter fleets may pull headsails and add a couple of lines, but that’s about it. So when they get hit, it’s a hard hit with a LOT of totaled boats. Of course if I lived and worked in New Jersey or somewhere I guess I’d rather have a totaled boat as opposed to a badly damaged one thousands of miles away and me having no real way of getting it repaired, and couldn’t take weeks off work to deal with it.
People who work for the Charter Co., it’s not their boat and of course they need to get home and try to protect their houses, ensure their families safety etc.
I would assume the Insurence companies of course require a different form / type of Insurence for boats that are Chartered, and just as a guess, I bet the People that own them are really, really hurting with premiums, it may really change the numbers on having a boat in Charter?

I have never understood why the Charter companies didn’t own the boats, it seemed to me that if there was good money in it, they would of course.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I figured that. But north qld and the carribean arent florida or the rest of Queensland.

My point is I understand Florida, I can see how the numbers work for them but dont see how the numbers work for them in the Carribean, apparently they have taken big losses thus the numbers mustn't work, if they did their wouldn't be a problem.

I also understand people keeping their boats in Florida, I'm assuming many live there but keeping a boat in the Carribean hurricane belt and flying home comes at a greater risk than us that prudently decide not to expose ourselves to such a risk.

Yep, you are pretty much arguing the insurance carriers argument. They are resetting the criteria for underwriting. The reframing just might be a lot more than not boats in the hurricane zone, as you are suggesting. Some are getting out of recreational marine, some are not covering offshore vessels, some are not covering lowerer valued vessels and all balance by location. Along with these changes come the price hikes, which also is self selecting for their customers.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Yep, you are pretty much arguing the insurance carriers argument. They are resetting the criteria for underwriting. The reframing just might be a lot more than not boats in the hurricane zone, as you are suggesting. Some are getting out of recreational marine, some are not covering offshore vessels, some are not covering lowerer valued vessels and all balance by location. Along with these changes come the price hikes, which also is self selecting for their customers.

They screwed up, it dosen't take a genius to of worked out long ago that areas like the carribean are high risk.

I dont claim to understand their business model but I can only imagine theres many times more cheaper boats (whatever that is)out there than expensive boats, numbers matter, are they going to only go for the premium few?

As you can see on this and other threads theres a number of us that are now choosing to go naked , time will tell how this works out . People like myself and a number of friends would of kept insuring but theres a tipping point. They found it.

Back home I'll pay upto $5 for a cappuccino, $4.50 usually, you can squeeze me for $5 and I'll pay but feel I'm not getting value, when they ask $5.50 I walk, my tipping point was reached, can I afford the extra 50cents? Sure i can , will i pay it? nope, the value proposition just failed for me.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by daletournier

......

Back home I'll pay upto $5 for a cappuccino, $4.50 usually, you can squeeze me for $5 and I'll pay but feel I'm not getting value, when they ask $5.50 I walk, my tipping point was reached, can I afford the extra 50cents? Sure i can , will i pay it? nope, the value proposition just failed for me.

Location, location, location. The founder of Starbucks once said they were not in the coffee business, but in the real estate business. It requires a lot of real estate to make it really convieant for you to pay $5.50 for that coffee.
And here in Indonesia I pay $4 for a full restaurant meal and a Bintang (local beer).

[Leakie Marine]

Originally Posted by LTCruiser

Yes, we have gone ahead with New Wave Marine in Brisbane & NSW

Hi LTCruiser,
I just got a quote from them and the price is $1k less than the big firms! $1500 for $125k, 1k excess with racing cover.

How have your found them so far?

[CarlF]

I believe what has spooked the insurance companies is that hurricanes are coming ashore in the US at higher wind speeds. Michael hit the panhandle as a Cat 5 when a Cat 3 had been expected. Fortunately, it hit in a place with few insured boats. But the insurance companies noticed. The insurance payouts for a Cat 5 are exponentially larger than for a Cat 1. So they are raising rates or not renewing policies in case this is the new normal.

A possible scientific explanation is that the oceans have warmed below the surface. Especially in shallow areas like the Gulf.

Big hurricanes used to loose a category or two as they went along. A Cat 5 in the Caribbean would be a Cat 2 by the time it hit Florida. Not always, but often. This may be because big storms make big ocean waves that stir up a lot of cold water from deeper water to the surface. The cold water pulls heat energy out of the hurricane, damping it.

But recent surveys have shown that the ocean has warmed even down to 50ft from climate change. So the big waves don't bring up as much cold water and the hurricane maintains its strength or even grows. This happened in Michael and Dorian.

We'll know if this is real after another 5 years of so. But it seems the insurance companies are playing it safe.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by CarlF

A possible scientific explanation is that the oceans have warmed below the surface. Especially in shallow areas like the Gulf.

I am still astonished how much hot water we are talking about since it travels all the way across the Atlantic to warm England even during the winter, quite impressive really.

For those in the US, please don't fiddle with the tap, we are quite happy with the status quo.

Pete

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by familysailing

pantaenius was requiring hurricane plan with removal of all topsides items including boom in addition to hauling and hurricane straps.

The Lagoon 380 is not my favorite cruising boat but removing the boom? I'm okay with a hurricane plan requirement (my favorite was one that started out with RUN!) but dictating that plan is extreme. Do they make you take the hardtop off?

Susan from IMIS has popped up a couple of times. I think exceedingly highly of IMIS. I have a business relationship with Pantaenius and GEICO (I have signed off on insurance qualifications) but not with IMIS; the IMIS founder is a friend; IMIS has been sold to Gowrie Group but still operates independently. I recommend IMIS without reservation.

[a64pilot]

I bet he meant mast, but wrote boom