hunter yachts :'(

[CnC40sailor]

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

I call BS!!! A quick google shows sail area on a stock 1980 C&C 40 to be around 750sq ft. My 38' Hunter (vertical batten furling main) is around 900sq ft. Show us a 45' Hunter with less than 750sq ft please...
BTW, my Hunter 38 has a PHRF (not that I care) of 99, about the same as yours...

Tall rig deep keel. Phrf 90. 150% genoa. If I checked the same site as you, which I think I did, I haven't seen many 40s with a 100% foretriangle, most fly 130. Try again. Now if you do calculate it with a 130, you get about 850ft of sail, with a standard rig. Then add another hundred 100 for the tall rig and the 150 genoa, and wow! 950sqft of sail! (To think this is on the lower end of the spectrum). And hmmm the CURRENT HUNTER 45 HAS LESS THAN 950.
Now does your hunter have a furler?

[CnC40sailor]

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

I call BS!!! A quick google shows sail area on a stock 1980 C&C 40 to be around 750sq ft. My 38' Hunter (vertical batten furling main) is around 900sq ft. Show us a 45' Hunter with less than 750sq ft please...
BTW, my Hunter 38 has a PHRF (not that I care) of 99, about the same as yours...

My boat has beat first 44.7, j-105 j 122, x 43s frers 40s and the list goes on. See how your hunter compares to those. I sail 9kts with a 20kt breeze on the nose. PHRF is the worst way to rate a boat. You want to compare boat speed, then race it. Let me know how well you do.

[CnC40sailor]

CnC40 - you know what you are full of! Your initial post here is like me calling your mother fat, ugly, slow and poor health. And there using that to say the same applies to your whole family![/QUOTE]

Hence the reason for my latter post, I came off in a way that did not represent my true feelings, so I apologized. I can only ask for forgiveness for a blatant error. I am sorry.
I know I nullified that apology by saying I was disappointed in the results, but you have to understand I haven't heard many good things about the company, till now.

[KnuckleDragger]

Can't help but notice that you didn't answer the question...

[CnC40sailor]

If your talking about the sail area, I did.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by CnC40sailor

My boat has beat first 44.7, j-105 j 122, x 43s frers 40s and the list goes on. See how your hunter compares to those. I sail 9kts with a 20kt breeze on the nose. PHRF is the worst way to rate a boat. You want to compare boat speed, then race it. Let me know how well you do.

Any race (or most other methods of performance characterization) is comparing the sailors more than the boats.

Mark

[CnC40sailor]

Originally Posted by colemj

Any race (or most other methods of performance characterization) is comparing the sailors more than the boats.

Mark

Agreed. But it is better than PHRF. In my opinion, IRC is much better than the latter.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

One problem I have with these threads, is the same problem I see in "blue water" type threads....I see a lot of theory, but little facts.


Fact??? Has anyone direct or provable experience with a modern production boat, (even a Hunter), undergoing hull failure under extreme conditions?? Minor flexing, or cracking may be worrysome, but doesn't count unless severe enough that the boat sank.

Fact??? Has anyone had direct experience of rigging failure due to under sized rigging, (not from unresolved maintenence).

Fact??? Has anyone actual statistics of number of times fin keeled boats were rolled during breaking waves compaired to full keeled boats in same storm???

Fact?? Has anyone data that supports increased Hull failures with decreasing hull thickness associated with modern design methods?

Without facts all we have are opinions.

I may have unwarranted faith in modern engineering, but I can't see a manufacturer risking everything, on what will certanly be massive lawsuits, and negative publicity over saving a few bucks during production.

Disclosure: I don't have a general beef with Hunters and like several of their models. I believe Hunter has often pushed the design envelope forward and was one of the innovators that got the market unstuck from the "ratlines and baggywrinkle" rut. And we have a catamaran - a boat type hated even more than Hunters by many people here.

However, there are several documented cases of Hunters with hull failures, rudder failures and rigging failures (some with sinkings). These were numerous and happened during a particular time/model and almost single handedly gave Hunter the black eye it has never escaped. Google is your friend. Search for rudder posts, chainplates and hull-deck joints.

There is also a famous case of a Bavaria model losing its keel, and I know personally of a Bavaria (different model) whose rudder simply peeled apart and went missing while underway.

Almost all small boats (<80') will roll under breaking waves in storms - the keel type has little to do with that aspect. Breaking storm waves are serious conditions that few sail through unscathed - most deploy a drogue or sea anchor to cope.

Don't confuse "modern design" with "decreasing hull thickness". Thinner hulls can be engineered and constructed to the same (or better) structural strength as thicker hulls, but these hulls will not be made using chopped strand, mat, woven roving or polyester resin.

Mark

[CnC40sailor]

I find it surprising that someone in a completely different market of boats knows more about a particular brand than those who "thoroughly" researched the boat they were eventually going to buy...

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by CnC40sailor

Now if I'm not mistaken, hunters are marketed as Water boats">blue water boats. Wide transoms, if not for speed is for interior size. Wide transoms are awful for bluewater boats. Compared to a rounder boat, they round up into the wind more often, developing weather helm (because more boat has been picked up out of the water) and also have a greater tendency to broach, something I have seen a few hunters do, and only on the chesapeake bay.
Most of their boats I think use polyester, which is so much more prone to blistering, creating long term problems

Where to begin...

Regarding wide transoms, ever seen a Volvo ocean race boat?

Greater tendency to broach - talk about generalities! Anyone want to bet how factually based that one is?

prone to long-term problems (blistering) - same layup schedule as virtually all other boats, production or otherwise.

It would be great if folks prefaced their posts here with a warning that uninformed opinions and misperceptions may be forthcoming.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Where to begin...

Regarding wide transoms, ever seen a Volvo ocean race boat?

Greater tendency to broach - talk about generalities! Anyone want to bet how factually based that one is?

prone to long-term problems (blistering) - same layup schedule as virtually all other boats, production or otherwise.

It would be great if folks prefaced their posts here with a warning that uninformed opinions and misperceptions may be forthcoming.

I believe this guy is talking about cruising boats , a VOR 60 is like a huge surfing board , hitting 20+ in most conditions , transom dont have the chance to see a wave breaking , waves see the transom going fast!!!!

[CnC40sailor]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Where to begin...

Regarding wide transoms, ever seen a Volvo ocean race boat?

Greater tendency to broach - talk about generalities! Anyone want to bet how factually based that one is?

prone to long-term problems (blistering) - same layup schedule as virtually all other boats, production or otherwise.

It would be great if folks prefaced their posts here with a warning that uninformed opinions and misperceptions may be forthcoming.

Regarding hunter yachts THEY ARE DISPLACEMENT HULLS. Tell me next time you see a surfing hunter then tell me the wide transom is worth it.

First of all, any epoxy boat cannot blister. Now I'm not sure about this because I'm "uninformed"but I thought epoxy was impermeable. Now there are boats that use this magical resin, its even American! Think tartan and C&C.

Vinylester has an extremely high water resistance, and for the most part doesn't get blisters (just ask my yacht yard)

Now I don't think I have to explain how wide transoms are less seakindly than rounder boats. People on this forum know boats, and can see through your ignorance.

[KnuckleDragger]

Of course, his old boat is a polyester layup as were virtually all older boats. Hunters and many other modern boats use an initial layup of vinylester resin to mitigate blister problems. Good comment on the wide fanny design element. The guy is a troll...why bother to respond further to a thread that is merely trying to pick a fight?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by CnC40sailor

I find it surprising that someone in a completely different market of boats knows more about a particular brand than those who "thoroughly" researched the boat they were eventually going to buy...

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I didn't profess any expertise on the brand. I stated that examples of the questions posed by capn_bill could be found easily on the internet.

I stand by my statement that "modern design" and "thin hulls" are not necessarily the same thing.

Mark

[CnC40sailor]

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

Of course, his old boat is a polyester layup as were virtually all older boats. Hunters and many other modern boats use an initial layup of vinylester resin to mitigate blister problems. Good comment on the wide fanny design element. The guy is a troll...why bother to respond further to a thread that is merely trying to pick a fight?

I have refrained from name calling, and yet you accuse me of picking fights. This is hypocrisy in its most blatant of forms.
You were right, my boat WAS polyester and blister prone, till of course it blistered and I had them redo the bottom with a vinlyester resin.

Back to the wide transom, here is a quote from sailing magizine reviewing the C&C 121:
" The hull shape features an extremely wide transom. It's too wide for my eye, but this beam aft benefits the cockpit layout and the aft cabin accommodations. Is this shape bad? or slow?No, I don't think so. Sometimes when you get a boat with too much beam aft the waterlines go quite asymmetrical when the boat heels over giving it a multiple personality, i.e. it's balanced and well-behaved when sailed upright, but a real unbalanced bear when it's heeled"