Cruising Asymetrical and Furler

[opwan2002]

I have the bow sprit mods almost complete, still looking for a response on pricing.

[islandplanet]

I'm not sure why someone would choose Bamar roll-gen over a Facnor A-FX system. Facnor is well proven, particularly in Europe, and we've never heard a complaint about the product. Facnor is significantly less money and widely distributed so there's many choices of vendors.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by RainDog

Maybe I am missing something, but a furled asym does not make any sense to me. It is only attached in two spots, the sail shape is wrong, you never reef it, and you need to be able to adjust luff tension. A furler is more complicated and expensive than the sock and harder to use.

RainDog,

If one of your dock neighbors has an assym on a furler, I highly encourage you to get out for a sail with him or her. Luff tension is adjusted with the tack line. For larger boats, a halyard lock can be fitted and considerable luff tension added without compression loading the rig. As for the sail shape being wrong, I'm not sure what you're referring to. You control shape on an assym with luff tension, sheeting angle, and sheet tension. That's the same whether you use no sock, a sock, or a furler.

The one argument against using a sock or a furler is that you could have a bit longer luff if you deployed through a hatch or launching bag as the furler or sock does take some space.

On a cruising boat, that's not a factor.

[Arcady]

Opwan2002, we have a Bamar system and like it. On the whole it's simple and reliable, but it is dependant on having wind just off quarter when furling: give yourself plenty of sea room. I once sailed upriver with following breeze which suddenly changed to strong cross wind. No sea room to furl properly and not pretty to watch :-)

[MANUIWA]

It also helps to put a snatch block on the socks continuous control line and attach it to a forward stanchion. It helps with setting/retrieval of the asymetrical;while also keeping it(the line) from getting out of reach.

[Stumble]

I am actually working on adding this system right now on my cruising boat based upon my use of them while racing. They work great but there are a few issues that have to be addressed if you want to get reasonable performance and reliability. I am going to include retail prices for my boat, your prices may vary based upon spec, and size.

1) there are two types of asym furlers on the market. The first is a captive luff system, and are used for sails where the luff of the sail is kept under tension. These are primarily upwind asymetricals like code sails (0-2), and some gennikers. The deeper the cut of the sail the less well these furlers will work.

The second furler type is called a top down furler and instead of the torsion rope being sewn into the luff of the sail run independently of the sail itself. Nested the torsion line runs from the bottom swivel to the top swivel, and the sails starts to roll from the top (thus the name). These are designed for deep cut sails, everything from a true runner, up to a beam reach sail.

The problem with the top down furlers is that until Selden released their new one about a month ago the prices on them were very high. Roughly $3,000, or about three times the cost of a captive luff system. The new selden system retails at $1100, or about $400 more than I was quoted to an ATN sock.

2) Depending on the layout of the boat you may have to modify the bow to handle the furling system (these typically have continuious line systems). I have chosen to add a selden retrofit asym-pole at a cost of $700. The advantage of this is it allows easy inside jibeing of the sail, and a longer projection from the mast, increasing the size of the sail by about 30%. It makes the sail easier to set, and easier to handle.

All up the cost for the sail ($2,500) + furler ($1,100) + sprit (700) was right at $4,300 retail, plus installation costs.

At a minimum I was looking at sail plus sock or $3,200. For me it was worth the extra $1,100 for a number of reasons.

1) ease of jibeing the spinnaker
2) the spinnaker can be put up at the dock and left rolled up all day/weekend without worry. Then dropped when we are back in the slip.
3) all lines run to the cockpit
4) I sail short handed a lot, and I find it easier than a sock to deal with
5) less weight and windage aloft (my racing background)
6) for beer can PHRF the system cost us 3 seconds/mile
7) did I mention it can be run up the mast at the dock, and left up for the weekend?

[islandplanet]

Greg,

Does the price of your furler include the anti-torsion rope?

[AllezCat]

I have a new asymmetrical with the facnor furler. Just completed first passage - but was mostly over 40 knots so is still dry, and untested - I will let you know how it works when we test it in controlled conditions - soon.
Also bought seperate ATN sleeve just in case...

[Stumble]

I actually had to check on this, but the retail price does not. For my boat the list price on the anti-torsion rope was $150 retail. My cost delivered was significantly below full retail price (low enough I was asked not to disclose it).

There were also some additional costs I didn't include, because I felt that they were the same as adding any spinnaker to a boat that either originally didn't have one (sheet blocks, new halyard, ect.), or we're added at the same time for other reasons (new halyard winch to reduce clutter, second deck organizer for the starboard side ect). I should have added in the torsion line however since that was unique, thanks for the assist.

So instead of $1,100 the difference was about $1,250 retail.

If you are considering doing this, I would highly recommend seeing a good sailmaker, and working with them on their first similar install. It saved me a bunch of money so the sailmaker could learn the system, and get some experience with how it all comes together.

He is now planning on using my boat as a show piece to sell other cruisers on the idea of adding this type of system, once we work out all the bugs. We don't have it up and flying yet, but these are a few of the things we are expecting to deal with.

1) halyard tension is important. To much and the roll get to tight at the top, too loose and it doesn't roll up right. So we are planning on marking the halyard at the sweet spot with a sharpie. So the process will be tack line all the way in, halyard to the mark, furl.

2) for cruising putting it together at the doeves eels like it will be the easy way to go. Furling units put up on the water are still better than out of the bag, but we expect it to be uh easier at the dock.

3) how on my boat to run the spin lines inside the cockpit

4) how to run the reefing lines so they are accessible and out of the way

5) how to attach the torsion line to the chute. The torsion lines are impossible to splice, and must be seized. What the best way to do this will be, likely will take a few tries.

In short I expect there to be a few hiccups along the way to getting the system installed, but I don't see any major issues. I have experience with the individual components (furlers and add on bowsprits) and individually they work great, the question is will there be anything unforeseen, and I doubt it, but until it's up and flying....

Originally Posted by islandplanet

Greg,

Does the price of your furler include the anti-torsion rope?

[barnakiel]

I believe RollGen is that horrible Bamar thing I used once. I would not buy one for my own boat.

A spinnaker does not really go well with a furler. Go for a gennaker and get a good furler if the sail is too big to lower in the regular manner (or if you are going to single handle, then get an AP too).

A nice kite furler can be used for a gen, then disconnected and used for a light genoa/drifter/zero type of sail.

b.

[opwan2002]

GREG: CAN I GET A LIST OF THE PARTS YOU USED TO PUT TOGETHER YOUR SYSTEM AND WHAT SIZE BOAT ARE YOU USING THEM ON? YOU MENTIONED FACNOR FURLER: I WAS LOOKING AT THE FX4500 FOR MY CATALINA 470 BUT I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE SNAP SWIVELS TO CONNECT TO THE BOW SPRIT OR THE HEAD SWIVEL ETC. A LIST OF THE COMPONENTS WOULD REALLY BE A HELP, AND DID YOU HAVE SOMEONE AT THE SAIL SHOP FABRICATE THE ANTI-TORSION ROPE?
-WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED?
-LIST OF PARTS?
-SIZE OF BOAT?
THANKS DARRELL

[Kestrahl]

I'm a sailmaker with a 35ft cruiser/racer. While I still have a sym spinnaker on board for racing or if I'm feeling energetic. For short handed cruising I went with the option of a large super zero on a furler similar to what the volvo boats are using except a bit deeper and shorter on the foot. The foot length is restricted to allow goose winging with the spinnaker pole for flat running. As its not designed not to comply with IRC etc, the leech is straight to keep the sail stable and not hook tight reaching. The furler is a Ronstan code zero furler which is new but seems ok so far.

I've designed straight luff gennaker for clients which work well but are quite limited on their angles of use. Loose luff is better but more complicated and prone to issues. It all looks good in the video's however when I talked to the ETNZ Camper guys they said they were to prone to problems to use on the volvo boats.

[chris_gee]

Just reading the system I don't think the torsion line attaches to the chute per se. Rather it looks like the head ring is attached to the "ears" on the side of the top fitting. As that rotates around the torsion line running between the top and bottom fittings it rolls the top first. There is no place to connect the spinnaker otherwise as shown on their drawings. Interesting the torsion line is attached by a version of the fittings available for stays ie clamped.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

I'm a sailmaker with a 35ft cruiser/racer. While I still have a sym spinnaker on board for racing or if I'm feeling energetic. For short handed cruising I went with the option of a large super zero on a furler similar to what the volvo boats are using except a bit deeper and shorter on the foot. The foot length is restricted to allow goose winging with the spinnaker pole for flat running. As its not designed not to comply with IRC etc, the leech is straight to keep the sail stable and not hook tight reaching. The furler is a Ronstan code zero furler which is new but seems ok so far.

I've designed straight luff gennaker for clients which work well but are quite limited on their angles of use. Loose luff is better but more complicated and prone to issues. It all looks good in the video's however when I talked to the ETNZ Camper guys they said they were to prone to problems to use on the volvo boats.

Kestrahl,

We've been doing a lot of straight luff sails as well and the customers report good times. Typically we're hearing that the average 40'er is getting 6 knots in 10 knots true. And the sails are much more manageable as you know. Loosen the tack line and they are even ok downwind. Kind of a Swiss Army knife of a sail.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by chris_gee

Just reading the system I don't think the torsion line attaches to the chute per se. Rather it looks like the head ring is attached to the "ears" on the side of the top fitting. As that rotates around the torsion line running between the top and bottom fittings it rolls the top first. There is no place to connect the spinnaker otherwise as shown on their drawings. Interesting the torsion line is attached by a version of the fittings available for stays ie clamped.

Chris,
The Facnor with anti-torsion line attaches to chute roughly half way up luff. It's just a loop of thin line. Facnor describes it as an advantage over top down furlers.