Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Your a tough customer, seriously do you not give any credence to the CE ratings??

Look at the 'Real Life' evidence presented by current Production Builders.. keel failures, rudder failures etc..
Be very interesting to get a random pick Beneteau Sense straight off the line and subject it to a Lloyds Standard Builders Survey..
I know for sure it will 'Pass' on the 'Idiots Stickers' everywhere.. but how much else I wonder..

[Prairie Chicken]

So I will save you the effort: ALL PEOPLE WHO SAIL A BENETEAU WILL DIE!

I did; and I haven't.

Of course, it would also be correct to say "All people who sail will die!". Sometime.

[dick sargent]

In my humble opinion, along with good seamanship, the other important thing is "sea kindliness". How does one know? Reputations of different boats and a keen eye. My wife and I lived aboard our (extremely sea kindly) Alden 44' ketch, while cruising out of country for 25 years; in all, sailing for 70 years. But the more I learn the less I know it seems. This website for example. I'd prefer picking a vessel based on offshore standards, whether sailing on shore or off. Thanks everyone for your frankness

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken

I did; and I haven't.

Of course, it would also be correct to say "All people who sail will die!". Sometime.

My 88 year old mum said to me "...if I ever die..."


Bless her

[donradcliffe]

If you really think that a Loyds classification is worth more than the powder to blow it to hell, you need to read this book:

The Tankship Tromedy: The Impending Disasters In Tankers by Jack Devanney — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

The free online version for us cruisers

http://www.c4tx.org/ctx/pub/tromedy2.pdf

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by sailingfarmer

A true Blue water vessel can take green water completely over the bow and get hammered in a gale. A needs a cockpit that empties water fast once inundated by a large wave over the transom, rigging that can take the stress in a knockdown, backup systems, Single Sideband radio, Ocean EPIRBS, Ocean survival emergency life raft, strong hull construction, storm sails and green water safe ports and hatches. A coastal sailboat needs to pick its weather and run to port if the weather gets over 20 knots.

That's a pretty large gap between the Blue Water Vessel you describe and the Coastal Sailboat.

My boat ( a Bristol 27) doesn't have half that "blue water vessel" equipment, but it seems to enjoy sailing in 20 knot winds. It likes it so much that many times I'll put on the autopilot and go sit on the cabin top and enjoy the ride especially if it's upwind or on a reach.

Also, in beach cat racing, I don't believe they call a race for high winds until there is 5 minutes at 21 knots and beach cats are 16'-21' and weigh anywhere from 165 lbs (A Class Catamaran) to 400 lbs (Nacra 6.0/Nacra Inter 20 etc) with tons of sail area. (and they do not have sails that reef!)

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If you really think that a Loyds classification is worth more than the powder to blow it to hell, you need to read this book:

The Tankship Tromedy: The Impending Disasters In Tankers by Jack Devanney — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

The free online version for us cruisers

http://www.c4tx.org/ctx/pub/tromedy2.pdf

Cannot be bothered to read a Tome of no interest or correlation but.. If your referring to the tankers that broke their backs.. that's what happens when Commerce pushes to far.. all Lloyds can do is inspect that all work meets the minimum required standard for its purpose..
However.. is this not like comparing an apartment block to a bungalow in an earthquake zone..
But each to their own.. if you think an industry's CE award to itself is of value.. and keep a straight face.. have an Oscar..

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yep, because so many so called coastal cruisers have been built up just a bit and used as blue water boats

Bristol 22
Contessa 26
Bristol 27
Vega 27
Lapworth 24
Triton 28

Looking at this list does it indicate that older boats were simply built better and stronger than the newer ones? That is to say more suitable for conversion to blue water quality boat

Do not forget cal 20s that have sailed across the pacific. No one ever accused a cal 20 of being a blue water boat.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by thomm225

That's a pretty large gap between the Blue Water Vessel you describe and the Coastal Sailboat.

My boat ( a Bristol 27) doesn't have half that "blue water vessel" equipment, but it seems to enjoy sailing in 20 knot winds. It likes it so much that many times I'll put on the autopilot and go sit on the cabin top and enjoy the ride especially if it's upwind or on a reach.

Also, in beach cat racing, I don't believe they call a race for high winds until there is 5 minutes at 21 knots and beach cats are 16'-21' and weigh anywhere from 165 lbs (A Class Catamaran) to 400 lbs (Nacra 6.0/Nacra Inter 20 etc) with tons of sail area. (and they do not have sails that reef!)

You are correct. SailingFarmer is a bit out to lunch. He made up his own definition. Probably reads Cruising World for his info.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by thomm225

That's a pretty large gap between the Blue Water Vessel you describe and the Coastal Sailboat.

My boat ( a Bristol 27) doesn't have half that "blue water vessel" equipment, but it seems to enjoy sailing in 20 knot winds. It likes it so much that many times I'll put on the autopilot and go sit on the cabin top and enjoy the ride especially if it's upwind or on a reach.

Also, in beach cat racing, I don't believe they call a race for high winds until there is 5 minutes at 21 knots and beach cats are 16'-21' and weigh anywhere from 165 lbs (A Class Catamaran) to 400 lbs (Nacra 6.0/Nacra Inter 20 etc) with tons of sail area. (and they do not have sails that reef!)

Thomm, from this and your previous post in this thread, it is perfectly clear that you have little or no OFFSHORE experience. Once you have ridden out a F8+ gale at sea, you will realize that while thunderstorms in the Chesapeake can be exciting, they don't compare to a deep sea gale of the same wind strength... not at all.

If this seems unlikely to you, try asking Boatman, Evans, Nigel, or any of the other CFers who do have that experience.

And FWIW, IMO it is not equipment that defines the BWB, but the structural integrity of hull and rig, and the watertightness of the openings. If those things are good enough, the rest of the features are window dressing in terms of survival.

But of course, few cruisers ever meet survival conditions, due to prudence and good understanding of wx patterns. The ones now in Fiji... maybe not so, poor buggers.

jim

[donradcliffe]

Too bad, you are going to miss a good book, written by a guy who has saltwater in his veins and owned a large tanker fleet.

The problem he points out is that while Lloyds has people who know who to verify the design of a ship, make sure that its is built to design, and make sure it is properly maintained, Lloyds are in competition with all the other classification societies. If they don't approve what is done, no matter how poorly, the shipowners and shipyards take their business elsewhere.

In the movie 'The Big Short', there is a scene where they ask one of the bond rating companies why they gave excellent ratings to mortgage backed securities that were based on really crappy loans, leading to the world financial crisis in 2008. The answer was "if we hadn't rated them highly, the banks would have taken their business down the street"' Its the same issue with the ship classification societies--the appearance of regulation, but capitalism at its worst behind the scenes.

a snippet from the pdf:

3.4. RULES OF THE ROAD SCREW-UPS 107
...and a massive spill was avoided. Nothing would have helped in the case
of the New World/Ya Mawlaya. The two ships were approaching each
other at 90 degrees, with the New World headed north and the Ya Mawlaya
headed east. The Ya Mawlaya was clearly the give-way vessel. When the
Ya Mawlaya showed no signs of changing course, the New World called
her. In response, the officer on the Ya Mawlaya heaped racial abuse on the
officer on the New World, and simply ran into her, killing eight.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Too bad, you are going to miss a good book, written by a guy who has saltwater in his veins and owned a large tanker fleet.

The problem he points out is that while Lloyds has people who know who to verify the design of a ship, make sure that its is built to design, and make sure it is properly maintained, Lloyds are in competition with all the other classification societies. If they don't approve what is done, no matter how poorly, the shipowners and shipyards take their business elsewhere.

In the movie 'The Big Short', there is a scene where they ask one of the bond rating companies why they gave excellent ratings to mortgage backed securities that were based on really crappy loans, leading to the world financial crisis in 2008. The answer was "if we hadn't rated them highly, the banks would have taken their business down the street"' Its the same issue with the ship classification societies--the appearance of regulation, but capitalism at its worst behind the scenes.

a snippet from the pdf:

3.4. RULES OF THE ROAD SCREW-UPS 107
...and a massive spill was avoided. Nothing would have helped in the case
of the New World/Ya Mawlaya. The two ships were approaching each
other at 90 degrees, with the New World headed north and the Ya Mawlaya
headed east. The Ya Mawlaya was clearly the give-way vessel. When the
Ya Mawlaya showed no signs of changing course, the New World called
her. In response, the officer on the Ya Mawlaya heaped racial abuse on the
officer on the New World, and simply ran into her, killing eight.

What has this got to do with small boat builders.. its a completely different animal where they can and do affect whether your boat is or is not insurable.. a CE certificate does not..
All a CE certificate does is permit one to sell a boat in Europe.. and if you bring one in without one.. it has to be inspected for all the idiot stickers for a lunatic price..

[JPA Cate]

Good morning Rustic Charm,

First off, I want to say that the terms have never really been defined. Which is why opinions vary so much, we don't even know what exactly we are talking about. If you look at Australia, you will see that coastal cruising is different for different parts of it. Some places have whirlpools, others, cyclones, others are isolated. Once away from Darwin, headed west, the cruiser will need a whole lot more stowage space for food stores and need to be more self-sustaining and repair capable than Sydney sailors, for instance, for whom food, fuel and water are readily available. So there is one component: the ability to be self-reliant.

The Tasmanian sailor has higher latitude issues, and i think the Tasmanian built boats tend to be built for local conditions, which will mean that the Tassie coastal cruiser is also capable of safe enough ocean crossings, she should be able to handle wind-against-the-tide situations during frontal passages in Banks Strait. If she is very small, she might, with the addition of deck cargo, to have a go at one of the long crossings, but the boat herself will definitely be ocean capable. Another factor: ocean capable. (Some new boats lack handholds. At sea, you need handholds or finger rails to move around the boat when it's really lurchy.)

Now, there are more benign places in the world to sail, Southern California, comes to mind, or maybe Queensland without thunderstorms and cyclones, most of the year. The lightly built boats do fine in both places. They wear large sails, too, half of which would not serve in Northern Calif, let alone the PNW, or the north European crowd. What seems to me to be happening is that people are now forced by their budgets into buying boats that were designed as day sailors, and maybe weekenders, then they add the "normal" safety gear that you, from Tassie, would already have, having been built into a local boat. And so, the building of entry level yachts has cut strength, and given style not particularly designed to work in a seaway and created an entry market to get people "hooked on" sailboats. Therefore, we have a moving target, for defining what we're trying to talk about.

I think the reason we have so much discussion of coastal vs. bluewater cruising is that there is no agreed upon definition, and that many CF'ers probably will not do many bluewater miles, hence don't really know what they are posting about, having only what they have read and seen videos of to give themselves an idea of what it is like, rather than having own experience. You can easily see where the conflict comes from: who has a boat, likes their boat. The guy from the PNW says it has to be able to withstand a big northern hemisphere blow. And it needs this and that to do it. The devil is in the details, because one guy thinks he needs a full keel ketch to do it safely, another says his cutaway forefoot cutter's better, another says his Beneteau is fine for it, and another chimes in with his Catamaran's a great boat.....very little consensus, and they all want to defend their boat choice. Meanwhile, I suspect the sailors are out sailing their boats rather than writing about it, weather permitting.

Ann

[Reefmagnet]

A coastal cruiser is designed with a focus on comfort and amenity in most situations.
A blue water cruiser is designed with a focus on safety and reliability in most situations.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[StuM]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Especially when we have had the discussion 3,000,000,0000000000000000000 times before and the only reason why they are reposted is the person is a newby or someone is on a fishing expedition.

So I will save you the effort: ALL PEOPLE WHO SAIL A BENETEAU WILL DIE!


Over and o.u.t.

It's either "over" or "out" - never both