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17-03-2020, 07:22
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#1
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,601
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Visual Distress Beacons
I've been looking into electric beacons (some call them electronic flares). I guess I was annoyed when I went to buy flares and found they were near 50% out of date. And yes, they are bright, but they only burn for 3 minutes.
- Both the USCG and manufacturers interviewed numerous boaters and landsman regarding precondition of the Morse code signal SOS. Apparently only 15% of boaters knew the pattern and only 2% of landsman. Surprising?
- SOS vs. mayday vs. pan-pan. In the latter cases, the distinction is clear; Mayday is for very immediate and serious danger, and pan-pan is for other help. Is SOS a general distress call, or does it imply serious danger (risk to life or sinking)?
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17-03-2020, 12:26
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Vancouver Island
Boat: Hullmaster 27
Posts: 1,043
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
SOS vs. mayday vs. pan-pan. In the latter cases, the distinction is clear; Mayday is for very immediate and serious danger, and pan-pan is for other help. Is SOS a general distress call, or does it imply serious danger (risk to life or sinking)?
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Any distress call does imply serious danger (pan-pan is not a distress call). The COLREGS list the internationally recognised distress signals ... including:
Quote:
(d) a signal made by radiotelegraphy or by any other signalling method consisting of the group . . . - - - . . . (SOS) in the Morse Code;
(e) a signal sent by radiotelephony consisting of the spoken word “Mayday”;
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So yes, "...---..." should carry the same implications as "mayday" ... but as to getting the message across to the uninitiated, perhaps we need a distress emoji we can text them.
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17-03-2020, 15:39
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,891
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelkara
Any distress call does imply serious danger (pan-pan is not a distress call). The COLREGS list the internationally recognised distress signals ... including:
So yes, "...---..." should carry the same implications as "mayday" ... but as to getting the message across to the uninitiated, perhaps we need a distress emoji we can text them.
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https://www.fastemoji.com/43901.html
SOS Button was approved as part of Unicode 6.0 in 2010 under the name “Squared SOS” and added to Emoji 1.0 in 2015.
Unicode Character U+1F198:
🆘
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17-03-2020, 15:56
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#4
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,401
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
I've been looking into electric beacons (some call them electronic flares). I guess I was annoyed when I went to buy flares and found they were near 50% out of date. And yes, they are bright, but they only burn for 3 minutes.
- Both the USCG and manufacturers interviewed numerous boaters and landsman regarding precondition of the Morse code signal SOS. Apparently only 15% of boaters knew the pattern and only 2% of landsman. Surprising?
Gobsmacking but maybe it is a generational thing!
- SOS vs. mayday vs. pan-pan. In the latter cases, the distinction is clear; Mayday is for very immediate and serious danger, and pan-pan is for other help. Is SOS a general distress call, or does it imply serious danger (risk to life or sinking)?
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I always understood that there were no subsections of a distress call - that it is binary thing.
Grave and imminent threat requiring immediate assistance = distress (AKA Mayday / SOS)
Anything else is not distress/mayday/SOS.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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18-03-2020, 05:59
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 1,642
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
I always understood that there were no subsections of a distress call - that it is binary thing.
Grave and imminent threat requiring immediate assistance = distress (AKA Mayday / SOS)
Anything else is not distress/mayday/SOS.
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A better way to describe the May Day alert is when you feel that you or your vessel are in danger
Alway best to send a mayday early , not when the situation has gotten out of control
There is no penalty for sending a mayday when you are tired, confused or feel the situation may be beyond your skill level
MRCC are trained to deal with all situations
The earlier you notify them , the more time they have to interpret the situation and prepare
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19-03-2020, 05:02
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#6
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,401
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by slug
A better way to describe the May Day alert is when you feel that you or your vessel are in danger
Alway best to send a mayday early , not when the situation has gotten out of control
There is no penalty for sending a mayday when you are tired, confused or feel the situation may be beyond your skill level
MRCC are trained to deal with all situations
The earlier you notify them , the more time they have to interpret the situation and prepare
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Interesting opinion and as far as I know it is not one shared by ITU which is the governing body.
If you don't require immediate assistance, the appropriate message is Urgency (pan pan). MRCC are trained to deal with this as well.
The more common definition of Distress is a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
Where as Urgency is a condition concerning the security of a ship, aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.
From Sailonline VHF Radio Basics
Note: If you are NOT in a life-threatening situation but still are in real need of assistance, use the same procedure as above, EXCEPT that in step 2, you replace the word MAYDAY by the the words "Pan Pan" (pronounce PAHNN PAHNN).
And Transport Canada uses a similar definition
https://web.archive.org/web/20120331.../HR/TP9878.PDF
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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19-03-2020, 06:40
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#7
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,601
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
I understand what you are saying, really I do or I would not have started this thread. Please watch this video, specifically the dialog starting at 1:00. The "emergency" is the engine not starting in dead calm conditions, in the summer, on a river within 1-mile of shore.
https://youtu.be/gIkDlpB60YM
This is an inconvenience, not an emergency. They don't try other means to start the engine. They don't try VHF or cell phone, although they are clearly in range. Straight to the visual SOS beacon.
Let's discuss that. Under what circumstances would you use a visual SOS beacon? Let's assume you are not an idiot and you tried calling first. Waiting out the night in a dead powerboat is not a reasonable expectation for most people, and as we know, situations can get worse. For example, just drifting into the main shipping channel at night, with no lights (let's assume power failure) is no joke.
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19-03-2020, 06:56
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,856
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
.
From Sailonline VHF Radio Basics
Note: If you are NOT in a life-threatening situation but still are in real need of assistance, use the same procedure as above, EXCEPT that in step 2, you replace the word MAYDAY by the the words "Pan Pan" (pronounce PAHNN PAHNN).
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Agree with what Wot said. Mayday is for situations where life is at risk. Just for interest, it comes from the French m'aidez, literally 'help me'. Pan pan also comes from French - the word panne, which translates as 'breakdown'. Perhaps this will help make it clear where to use each.
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19-03-2020, 07:58
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 1,642
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
Interesting opinion and as far as I know it is not one shared by ITU which is the governing body.
If you don't require immediate assistance, the appropriate message is Urgency (pan pan). MRCC are trained to deal with this as well.
The more common definition of Distress is a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
Where as Urgency is a condition concerning the security of a ship, aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.
From Sailonline VHF Radio Basics
Note: If you are NOT in a life-threatening situation but still are in real need of assistance, use the same procedure as above, EXCEPT that in step 2, you replace the word MAYDAY by the the words "Pan Pan" (pronounce PAHNN PAHNN).
And Transport Canada uses a similar definition
https://web.archive.org/web/20120331.../HR/TP9878.PDF
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I’m British Licensed
What I said is straight out of maritime college
If MRCC receives a mayday from you that they feel was frivolous, they will contact you directly
This communication will state the law
To avoid prosecution , You will be required to respond in writing, explaining why you issued a false distress and what procedures you will take in future to a prevent false transmission
Never overthink a distress situation
Issue the alert when you feel you life or your ship is in danger
The textbook case is you and your crew are exhausted
The weather forecast is Force 10 imminent
Mayday
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19-03-2020, 19:16
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#10
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,401
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
I understand what you are saying, really I do or I would not have started this thread. Please watch this video, specifically the dialog starting at 1:00. The "emergency" is the engine not starting in dead calm conditions, in the summer, on a river within 1-mile of shore.
https://youtu.be/gIkDlpB60YM
This is an inconvenience, not an emergency. They don't try other means to start the engine. They don't try VHF or cell phone, although they are clearly in range. Straight to the visual SOS beacon.
Let's discuss that. Under what circumstances would you use a visual SOS beacon? Let's assume you are not an idiot and you tried calling first. Waiting out the night in a dead powerboat is not a reasonable expectation for most people, and as we know, situations can get worse. For example, just drifting into the main shipping channel at night, with no lights (let's assume power failure) is no joke.
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Me - I would use the visual SOS beacon if/when a genuine distress condition existed.
In the situation as presented in the video, there is clearly no distress/emergency.
There is some urgency (or uncertainly) however the app and beacon does not have provision for such situations.
The skipper still has options.
Anchoring would be the prime one!
Weather appears to be stable and surely there is suitable clothing aboard for the children.
Highly likely the wife at home will raise some urgency communications with local police or whoever when hubby and her children aren't home at the appointed time.
Should the anchor fail and the boat drifts into main shipping channel with no lights at night would be a suitable time to activate a distress signal (in this case the SOS visual beacon).
The beacon as presented is one suitable backup method of transmitting a distress situation but certainly not the best way. The app isn't much better, clearly needs a mobile connection and in that instance, the cell phone would be better. Still as a backup, it is OK and it encourages the creation of a float plan. That in itself is a good thing.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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19-03-2020, 20:25
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,536
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
I carry one of the electronic flares - but only to be compliant with CG regulations without the cost, hazard and hassle of flares. It's almost impossible now in the US to dispose of outdated pyrotechnics correctly or legally.
I don't kid myself that the electronic flarewould actually result in a rescue.
As I'm sure Thinwater knows, flares are rarely correctly interpreted. Multiple officers on the Californian watched and discussed the Titanic's distress rockets without feeling it urgent enough to wake their Captain.
If I was in trouble and thought there was a boat close enough to see my distress signal -- but I couldn't raise anyone on VHF -- I'd trigger my AIS MOB.
Panbo accidentally had am AIS MOB go off in the cabin of his boat in Camden a few years ago. My chart plotter started beeping six miles away off North Haven showing a drowning man in the middle of the harbor. The CG came up on 16 in less than a minute asking for any sightings. At least a dozen boats responded to the CG.
And if all else fails, a powerful flashlight and loud horn or firing a shotgun works better than a little blinking light.
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19-03-2020, 21:17
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Hammond, IN
Boat: Columbia 8.7
Posts: 292
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
The main purpose of distress signals isn't to alert other people of your distress, it's to help SAR already out looking for you to find you.
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20-03-2020, 11:39
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#13
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,601
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF
...And if all else fails, a powerful flashlight and loud horn or firing a shotgun works better than a little blinking light.
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Around here they would assume you were hunting. Same with three blasts. And only hunters carry shotguns! So pretty much pointless. The rest would assume it was a military exercise.
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20-03-2020, 13:11
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#14
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,601
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
The inland rules (#37) says a regular flashing light at 50-70/minute is a distress signal, although this does not meet carriage requirements.
a. It would be simple to rig to the anchor light circuit. Some do.
b. I wonder if anyone pays attention to flashers on the water anymore. Around here they are common on fishing nets. SOS is recognizable, but I'd tend to ignor a regular flash unless I was well off shore.
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21-03-2020, 08:10
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cambridge MD
Boat: Carter offshore 35
Posts: 393
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Re: Visual Distress Beacons
The Morse code signal was originally CQD ( come quick disaster ) it was changed in 1908 to SOS to make the transmission shorter and more easily transmitted.The first recorded use was from the Titanic who sent not only CQD but SOS. This puts SOS in the same category as May Day immediate and serious danger. If a less urgent call was needed say for ship safety or safety of a person XXX would be sent which would be equivalent to a PAN PAN.
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