Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I did a passage in a F10 once, downwind from West Harbour to Poole, under a scrap of yankee, with boatspeed hardly falling below 10 knots the whole way. First year I had this boat. I have a video of it. Despite the huge waves, it was not scary at all -- it was even fun. Autopilot coped fine with it and we listened to Mahler in the cockpit.

Now THIS is the way to do it.

[carstenb]

I'm in total agreement with the run away sentiment. GEnerally any weather forecast for the next three days is fairly accurate. So you should always have a couple days warning of really nasty stuff.

I've been out in F8 and F9's where because of the preculiarty of Baltic waves, the autopilot was having a hard time keeping up. So we hand steered - which is tiring, but with two of us, not impossible.

And we knew the weather would be like that so it was not surprise. Happily the trip was from Gotland to Vastervik. When we got inside the archelpelago, the wind was not quite so ferocious and we were able to dock without problems

Practice your heaving to /forereaching and next time there is a gale going where you are - sail out into it. Nothing beats a little experience. Having been in a couple of gales means you won't fear them (as much)

[Neptune's Gear]

Well, mostly what has been said is right IMO. By all means practice heaving to and fore-reaching in a gale, and even a storm...

I'm not the world's expert by any means, but I have a boat similar to yours, have a few offshore miles, and I have been in force 12 in her. She has high freeboard, and a low cabin, with an angle of vanishing stability of 124 deg. Fin keel, spade rudder, displacement 7-8000 KG, depending on load.

If you are short handed, IMO running before it is a short term solution. In extreme conditions, running before it with a tired helmsman is a disaster waiting to happen. A broach only takes a moment of inattention, and rolling 360 deg is likely in this situation.

Again, IMO, once the breaking crests are more than about 30% of your waterline, unless you are in a vessel that has the crew to change the helm every 30 mins, AND stay with or outrun the waves, you need to do something else.

Personally I use a 5m dia W A Coppins stormfighter parachute, on a bridle off the bow. It allows my boat to stay hove to, about 30 odd degrees to the waves. The bridle allows the adjustment of the angle desired, to prevent fore-reaching. The parachute will pull the boat through the worst of the breaking crests, but mostly they seem to break over the parachute, and dissipate before they reach the boat.

I would not like to be trying to sail my boat, for hours or days even, down the 14m breaking waves we had, even with a drogue.

You must do what you think is best, This is just my opinion, based on my experiences, in my boat. Yours may be different.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Well, mostly what has been said is right IMO. By all means practice heaving to and fore-reaching in a gale, and even a storm...

I'm not the world's expert by any means, but I have a boat similar to yours, have a few offshore miles, and I have been in force 12 in her. She has high freeboard, and a low cabin, with an angle of vanishing stability of 124 deg. Fin keel, spade rudder, displacement 7-8000 KG, depending on load.

If you are short handed, IMO running before it is a short term solution. In extreme conditions, running before it with a tired helmsman is a disaster waiting to happen. A broach only takes a moment of inattention, and rolling 360 deg is likely in this situation.

Again, IMO, once the breaking crests are more than about 30% of your waterline, unless you are in a vessel that has the crew to change the helm every 30 mins, AND stay with or outrun the waves, you need to do something else.

Personally I use a 5m dia W A Coppins stormfighter parachute, on a bridle off the bow. It allows my boat to stay hove to, about 30 odd degrees to the waves. The bridle allows the adjustment of the angle desired, to prevent fore-reaching. The parachute will pull the boat through the worst of the breaking crests, but mostly they seem to break over the parachute, and dissipate before they reach the boat.

I would not like to be trying to sail my boat, for hours or days even, down the 14m breaking waves we had, even with a drogue.

You must do what you think is best, This is just my opinion, based on my experiences, in my boat. Yours may be different.

Heaving to while lying to a parachute sea anchor is the Pardy method, elaborately described in their interesting book, which I have read and re-read several times and keep on board. Have you tried this method? While I have experienced the magic of heaving-to in a storm and the protection of your "slick", all as described by the Pardys, I think the parachute sea anchor sounds fraught with risk, especially chafe, and the terror of the foredeck in extreme weather. The drogue sounds infinitely better to me. But this is only theory - I have never been in a F12 and can hardly imagine how one could involuntarily end up in one these days, leaving aside the Southern Ocean.

[Neptune's Gear]

Yes, it is basically the Pardy method that I use. I have a very heavy leather tube that covers the warp where it runs over the bow. Chafe is something that has to really be thought about and prepared for. The leather tube is tied to the bow, not the line. Other boats I know of use chain for the first few meters, to avoid the chafe issue. Oh yeah, I also run the parachute warp UNDER the bow roller, protected by the leather, so it cannot lift off the roller when the bow dips below the surface.

I run the warp from the bow down the side of the boat, tied to the stanchions with cable ties, before the storm. There is no need to go onto the foredeck - the boat was hove to, and the parachute launched, in it's deployment bag, direct from the cockpit. It deploys and pops the cable ties as it goes. The bridle (also pre installed) goes from a snatch block to a sheet winch. We did not go to the foredeck until 3 days later when we recovered the parachute....

I would not say it was pleasant, but we never felt our lives were threatened. Other methods MAY also have worked, but this is what we did.

Southern Ocean? Yeah, I lived and sailed south of 40 deg for 40 odd years, now moved north to 36 deg ! :-)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Yes, it is basically the Pardy method that I use. I have a very heavy leather tube that covers the warp where it runs over the bow. Chafe is something that has to really be thought about and prepared for. The leather tube is tied to the bow, not the line. Other boats I know of use chain for the first few meters, to avoid the chafe issue. Oh yeah, I also run the parachute warp UNDER the bow roller, protected by the leather, so it cannot lift off the roller when the bow dips below the surface.

I run the warp from the bow down the side of the boat, tied to the stanchions with cable ties, before the storm. There is no need to go onto the foredeck - the boat was hove to, and the parachute launched, in it's deployment bag, direct from the cockpit. It deploys and pops the cable ties as it goes. The bridle (also pre installed) goes from a snatch block to a sheet winch. We did not go to the foredeck until 3 days later when we recovered the parachute....

I would not say it was pleasant, but we never felt our lives were threatened. Other methods MAY also have worked, but this is what we did.

Southern Ocean? Yeah, I lived and sailed south of 40 deg for 40 odd years, now moved north to 36 deg ! :-)

The Roaring 40's! Wow! That explains a lot. Even up here in the 50s, in the Northern Hemisphere, with conditions subtropical sailors will hardly ever see, we in turn never get what you guys sail in down there, with your infinite circular fetch for wind and waves.

Well, that's a strong data point which I'll keep in mind. It sounds a lot better than I had imagined it would be like, and your real experience in conditions 99.9% of us will never experience is of course extremely valuable.

What kind of boat was that in?

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Yes, it is basically the Pardy method that I use. I have a very heavy leather tube that covers the warp where it runs over the bow. Chafe is something that has to really be thought about and prepared for. The leather tube is tied to the bow, not the line. Other boats I know of use chain for the first few meters, to avoid the chafe issue. Oh yeah, I also run the parachute warp UNDER the bow roller, protected by the leather, so it cannot lift off the roller when the bow dips below the surface.

I run the warp from the bow down the side of the boat, tied to the stanchions with cable ties, before the storm. There is no need to go onto the foredeck - the boat was hove to, and the parachute launched, in it's deployment bag, direct from the cockpit. It deploys and pops the cable ties as it goes. The bridle (also pre installed) goes from a snatch block to a sheet winch. We did not go to the foredeck until 3 days later when we recovered the parachute....

I would not say it was pleasant, but we never felt our lives were threatened. Other methods MAY also have worked, but this is what we did.

Southern Ocean? Yeah, I lived and sailed south of 40 deg for 40 odd years, now moved north to 36 deg ! :-)

I also stand in awe.

[simonpickard]

I can't thank you enough for all the great advice in here.

I've got some (more) reading to do but this has really cleared up things for me.
Just need the right conditions to get out there and practise them.

[CLady]

Barnakiel essentially captures it. Fin keels do limit your options in big/mixed seas--dodging hurricanes, swell from multiple directions can challenge keeping pointed in the right direction down the predominant larger waves. Driving up and over at a tight angle to the waves can prove most reliable in holding a heading and control of the boat relative to the seas--deep reefed main and some small bit of jib on inner stay or on headstay can provide a wee bit more stability/driving control.

[Neptune's Gear]

Dockhead, my boat is a Farr Phase 4, as in my signature. It's old now, (Built in 1988) but was revolutionary in her time. All the things that many on here say are no good offshore - GRP with core (coremat), and fin keel with bulb and wing, (but not high aspect like now), and spade rudder. Oh yes, and also a structural grid liner, vacuumed to the hull in one piece. She is 42 ft overall incl the short bowsprit, really just under 40 ft. Described by Farr as a performance cruiser.

If you want to read a story about survival in really extreme conditions, (and using a parachute) look here Para Sea Anchor Testimonials and read Charlie Blanchet's story. Better yet, get a copy of the whole story from Boating NZ, the issue mentioned. It makes what I've done look like a walk in the park! I have never heard of any sailing vessel surviving worse conditions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Dockhead, my boat is a Farr Phase 4, as in my signature. It's old now, (Built in 1988) but was revolutionary in her time. All the things that many on here say are no good offshore - GRP with core (coremat), and fin keel with bulb and wing, (but not high aspect like now), and spade rudder. Oh yes, and also a structural grid liner, vacuumed to the hull in one piece. She is 42 ft overall incl the short bowsprit, really just under 40 ft. Described by Farr as a performance cruiser.
.

That must tickle you when people who have never been out of sight of land, tells the guy with 25 years in the Southern Ocean, that his boat is no good for "blue water" It tickles me.

Your boat sounds a lot like mine. Mine was commissioned in 2001, so she's 13 years old. My bulb keel is, likewise, low aspect, which was considered right for cruising boats in those days. I don't have a spade rudder, but rather a semi-balanced rudder with partial skeg. Hull with full balsa core and partial Kevlar skin. Rather conservative hull form by today's standard, without the very flat aft sections or the wide transom. Her D/L is only 200, which also makes her a performance cruiser, like yours, and too light for the traditionalists. But she has a long waterline (47 feet) and is built immensely strong, with full stringers and structural bulkheads, with 16mm standing rigging and huge truss chainplates, and she does extremely well in all the weather I've stupidly sailed her in, which does not, however, reach to F12 as in your case.

[Gos2015]

So you have a choice, active (sail) or passive (heave to). Need to consider ability of boat and crew and size of weather system, plus sea room and how much running will take you off course.

If you sail, your choice is pretty limited to running and then a drogue if need be.

On the passive side, heaving to with a sea anchor is not a bad approach. If you lie with a sea anchor alone, you will lie directly into the waves and you need to worry about the torque on the mast and rigging dropping off the tops of the waves. Also, despite that your sea anchor may be set in the next wave over, as it should be, there is still the risk of sliding backwards and this could tear your rudder off. So, in conjunction with the sea anchor, attach a snatch block to the sea anchor rode and run the line aft. This allows you to set the angle of the boat to achieve the best slick, to break the waves, avoid the boat sliding back and roll off the top of the waves instead of dropping off the top.

[cajucito]

Lots to be said on this subject. I was rolled 360 in the med in a Janneau 36. A few lessons learned.
You can be rolled in any size boat, make sure your batteries can not fall out of their housings. All our batteries fell out and disconnected and spilled battery acid everywhere.
I would make sure all lockers have a latch so they cant open when inverted. We had a huge mess down below with a large soup of food, clothes, oil, battery acid, diesel oil, and we could not find any flashlight, Hand Held vhf, tools, and almost everything in lockers drawers and compartments was all flying about in a large black watery cocktail a few feet deep, We were in total darkness and could smell burning about 50 miles offshore. It was not very nice. Have a powerful waterproof LED flashlight strapped beside the companionway. Make sure you are ALWAYS strapped on when in bad weather. A 3/4 rig is always a good idea to take the strain off the top of the mast. A sea anchor deployed from the bow is best in my view but accept it depends on the boat. Running on bare poles can be dangerous in my view as your boat is pushed out of control into the danger zone as a wave builds to a steep wall before breaking on your stern whereas a bow set sea anchor will pull the sharp end of the boat thru a breaking wave. Dont worry about an inverted boat with an open hatch as air trapped in the upturned hull wont let in the water. Soon another wave will right the very unstable upturned boat. Water will only come while the boat is actually rolling or righting and there usually wont be enough time for too much water to get in but you will have a lot of bailing to do. Usually the most frightened of your crew with a large bucket will bail the quickest. If you are unlucky enough to get rolled start bailing immediately as you could get another roll again very soon before you regain some control. Of course the best trick is to avoid bad weather in the first place but everyone gets caught out sooner or later so as always you need to be prepared. Have a look around your boat before you set out and ask your self what will happen if it ends up inverted for 30 seconds.
I hope this helps.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by cajucito

Lots to be said on this subject. I was rolled 360 in the med in a Janneau 36. A few lessons learned.
You can be rolled in any size boat, make sure your batteries can not fall out of their housings. All our batteries fell out and disconnected and spilled battery acid everywhere.
I would make sure all lockers have a latch so they cant open when inverted. We had a huge mess down below with a large soup of food, clothes, oil, battery acid, diesel oil, and we could not find any flashlight, Hand Held vhf, tools, and almost everything in lockers drawers and compartments was all flying about in a large black watery cocktail a few feet deep, We were in total darkness and could smell burning about 50 miles offshore. It was not very nice. Have a powerful waterproof LED flashlight strapped beside the companionway. Make sure you are ALWAYS strapped on when in bad weather. A 3/4 rig is always a good idea to take the strain off the top of the mast. A sea anchor deployed from the bow is best in my view but accept it depends on the boat. Running on bare poles can be dangerous in my view as your boat is pushed out of control into the danger zone as a wave builds to a steep wall before breaking on your stern whereas a bow set sea anchor will pull the sharp end of the boat thru a breaking wave. Dont worry about an inverted boat with an open hatch as air trapped in the upturned hull wont let in the water. Soon another wave will right the very unstable upturned boat. Water will only come while the boat is actually rolling or righting and there usually wont be enough time for too much water to get in but you will have a lot of bailing to do. Usually the most frightened of your crew with a large bucket will bail the quickest. If you are unlucky enough to get rolled start bailing immediately as you could get another roll again very soon before you regain some control. Of course the best trick is to avoid bad weather in the first place but everyone gets caught out sooner or later so as always you need to be prepared. Have a look around your boat before you set out and ask your self what will happen if it ends up inverted for 30 seconds.
I hope this helps.

Thank you for this description. Happy you made it out ok. I am awed. Just for the record, since we have so many nay-sayers here re: production boats - how did the Jeanneau 36 fair? After you got her bailed out and the storm died down. Any truly lasting damage?

carsten

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by cajucito

Lots to be said on this subject. I was rolled 360 in the med in a Janneau 36. A few lessons learned.
You can be rolled in any size boat, make sure your batteries can not fall out of their housings. All our batteries fell out and disconnected and spilled battery acid everywhere.
I would make sure all lockers have a latch so they cant open when inverted. We had a huge mess down below with a large soup of food, clothes, oil, battery acid, diesel oil, and we could not find any flashlight, Hand Held vhf, tools, and almost everything in lockers drawers and compartments was all flying about in a large black watery cocktail a few feet deep, We were in total darkness and could smell burning about 50 miles offshore. It was not very nice. Have a powerful waterproof LED flashlight strapped beside the companionway. Make sure you are ALWAYS strapped on when in bad weather. A 3/4 rig is always a good idea to take the strain off the top of the mast. A sea anchor deployed from the bow is best in my view but accept it depends on the boat. Running on bare poles can be dangerous in my view as your boat is pushed out of control into the danger zone as a wave builds to a steep wall before breaking on your stern whereas a bow set sea anchor will pull the sharp end of the boat thru a breaking wave. Dont worry about an inverted boat with an open hatch as air trapped in the upturned hull wont let in the water. Soon another wave will right the very unstable upturned boat. Water will only come while the boat is actually rolling or righting and there usually wont be enough time for too much water to get in but you will have a lot of bailing to do. Usually the most frightened of your crew with a large bucket will bail the quickest. If you are unlucky enough to get rolled start bailing immediately as you could get another roll again very soon before you regain some control. Of course the best trick is to avoid bad weather in the first place but everyone gets caught out sooner or later so as always you need to be prepared. Have a look around your boat before you set out and ask your self what will happen if it ends up inverted for 30 seconds.
I hope this helps.

Thanks for sharing the story! Glad to hear you made it out ok.

If you would be willing, I would definitely like to hear how you got into that situation? Were you able to self rescue? Did you have any dewatering equipment and if not have you made any additions to the standard bilge pumps?