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Old 19-10-2016, 12:45   #31
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

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Originally Posted by crabcake View Post
"Because Halon is a CFC, the production of Halon ceased on January 1, 1994, under the Clean Air Act. There is no cost-effective means of safely and effectively disposing of the Halon that has already been produced, therefore recycling and reusing the existing supply intelligently and responsibly to protect lives and property is the best solution.

The EPA recognizes that that Halon remains the most effective "clean" extinguishing agent available, despite its ozone depleting potential, and there are no federal or state regulations prohibiting the buying, selling or use of Halon extinguishers. All Halon available now is recycled so it is an environmentally responsible choice."
Source

3M Makes NOVEC which it says is safe for the ozone layer and also has no harmful effects on humans.

DuPont also makes a competing product, although its somewhat different.
Thanks for the info. on Halon and the cause of it's demise as an engine room retardant system. Back to CO2 only hand held. I removed a system with two tanks,3' + with at least a 1' 3'' dia. tanks. Two men and a boy to move one.
A hand held is useful to chill a quick beer. At least carbotet. is no longer the hand held on boats.
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Old 19-10-2016, 12:50   #32
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

Yes Crabcake, NAF-S-227 is only truly effective on Class A fires. We had a Class C fire (Generator wiring harness) and once powere was secured/turned off, the fire then basically became an Alpha fire. NAF Was effective. Took 2 weeks to clean the Engine Room. A class B fire? No way, and have stated as much to the boat's project manager. Cost seems to be a driving issue on this project as well as availability of seagoing fire suppression systems here in Egypt which most companies don't fully understand as they are selling products that they don't fully understand (i.e. Good sales pitch, sell a product, take the money and run). To refill our bottle we called the installer...oh, they don't do that (refilling)...here's the phone number of my brother's friend who used to work at a company that did this a couple of years ago....they might still be in business. Such is the life working on boats here in Egypt....
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Old 19-10-2016, 16:26   #33
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

Halon is dangerous stuff because it works by displacing oxygen, one of the major ingredients needed for combustion. The problem here is that
Humans need oxygen to breath and stay alive.
I worked on many video programs that were used to
train computer room engineers on Halon systems.
In all installations there were time delays built in
between a triggering event and the actual release of
Halon, this was to allow the humans to get out.
If they were present when these systems lit off
they would suffocate rapidly
But hey, the computers would be fine
Cheers
Neil
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Old 19-10-2016, 16:27   #34
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

For smoke alarms in engine compartments:

They do make battery-operated wifi interconnected smoke alarms. One goes off, they all go off. Good way to ensure you can hear one if the one in the engine compartment goes off.

As a side issue, spraying the electronic components (but not the detection element itself) with BoShield or other dielectric spray can gain considerable lifetime in a marine environment.
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Old 19-10-2016, 20:24   #35
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

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Originally Posted by Time2Go View Post
Halon is dangerous stuff because it works by displacing oxygen, one of the major ingredients needed for combustion. The problem here is that
Humans need oxygen to breath and stay alive.
I worked on many video programs that were used to
train computer room engineers on Halon systems.
In all installations there were time delays built in
between a triggering event and the actual release of
Halon, this was to allow the humans to get out.
If they were present when these systems lit off
they would suffocate rapidly
But hey, the computers would be fine
Cheers
Neil

there is another reason halon is dangerous....

if exposed to heat in a low oxygen environment it generates phosgene gas (a chemical weapon)

now, consider an engine room fire - first thing you do is shut down fuel and electricity and seal the compartment - then you (or automatically) the halon is discharged, purging oxygen from the compartment.... you now have a low oxygen high heat environment filled with halon.... if you open the compartment before it cools, the halon will dissipate oxygen will return and the fire will probably reignite... if you leave the compartment sealed a %age of the halon can become phosgene - so stay well away until everything has cooled, and stay upwind when you do finally ventilate the compartment.
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Old 19-10-2016, 20:49   #36
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

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Originally Posted by Bill Seal View Post
Strange quirk in the English language, flammable and inflammable are synonyms, something that doesn't burn is non-flammable
Who the Hell invented our language?
I think it came from German with a frolicking of about every other language spoken on the planet tossed in just to make things interesting....
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Old 19-10-2016, 21:17   #37
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

I remember in my US Navy days when on board the USS Forrestal (CV-59), and going through fire fighting training at NB Mayport (in Florida, USA). We were taught that Halon was fantastic as a displacing gas, but as others have noted, it can kill you pretty rapidly, even instantaneously in certain conditions that are common when the gas was released. I remember when they decided to remove it, as the discussion was going on while I was still on active duty. We had a LOT of tall cylinders of Halon in our engine rooms throughout the fleet.

What I have been considering is that I have three CO2 extinguishers on board, and am considering how I could make an automatic extinguisher from one, but CO2 can kill you just as effectively and efficiently as Halon. On a sailboat, especially a 27 foot Hunter of my vintage, there just is not a lot of ventilation as a general rule, unless you open the forward hatch and the companionway panels. The engine compartment on my vessel is pretty small, and much of it is physically occupied by the Yanmar SB-8.

So how does a tiny room of that size get wired for an automated CO2 release without killing crew below deck with the CO2 should a leak occur? I suppose an alarm for the CO2 could be good but still, is there a way to know if the ppm density of CO2 as an extinguishing agent is still dangerous when moved from the engine space to the salon and vee of this moderately sized sailboat if folks are snoozing when the leak happens? If so, perhaps I could size an engine compartment canister accordingly, or something? I thought about using a blower fan to vent it from the compartment, but perhaps that would just turn the compartment into another chimney and thereby increase the chance of fire spreading faster in a real event??
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Old 20-10-2016, 01:56   #38
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

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So how does a tiny room of that size get wired for an automated CO2 release without killing crew below deck with the CO2 should a leak occur? I suppose an alarm for the CO2 could be good but still, is there a way to know if the ppm density of CO2 as an extinguishing agent is still dangerous when moved from the engine space to the salon and vee of this moderately sized sailboat if folks are snoozing when the leak happens? If so, perhaps I could size an engine compartment canister accordingly, or something? I thought about using a blower fan to vent it from the compartment, but perhaps that would just turn the compartment into another chimney and thereby increase the chance of fire spreading faster in a real event??
CO2 extinguishes fire by displacing oxygen, that is its only mode of action. if you ventilate the compartment too soon you risk reignition.

Human beings require a much higher concentration of oxygen than a fire does.... if you are sleeping in a poorly ventilated below deck compartment when an automated CO2 system does its thing, you wont wake up.

IMNSHO, any automated fire supression system should also sound an unmuteable alarm, loud enough to wake the dead.



for my engine room - its approaching time to replace the old halon system, I'm starting to like the idea of a few "elide fire ball"s. (Welcome to Fire Extinguishing Ball)
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Old 20-10-2016, 08:55   #39
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Time2Go View Post
Halon is dangerous stuff because it works by displacing oxygen, one of the major ingredients needed for combustion. The problem here is that
Humans need oxygen to breath and stay alive.
I worked on many video programs that were used to
train computer room engineers on Halon systems.
In all installations there were time delays built in
between a triggering event and the actual release of
Halon, this was to allow the humans to get out.
If they were present when these systems lit off
they would suffocate rapidly
But hey, the computers would be fine
Cheers
Neil
CO2 does the same thing by displacing oxygen. I haven't the slightest as to what dry chemicals do? They won't make dry ice for chilling beer.
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Old 20-10-2016, 09:55   #40
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

Well...reading the fine print in the info sheet of a CO detector that I bought in a German home improvement center, it is telling me that this CO detector is specifically NOT for MARINE use.

Doesn't say "why".

Does anyone know "why"?
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Old 20-10-2016, 11:05   #41
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

[QUOTE=Bill Seal;2237870]Strange quirk in the English language, flammable and inflammable are synonyms, something that doesn't burn is non-flammable
Who the Hell invented our language? [/QUOTE

Inflammable is not legally permissible language in any regulation. It is considered archaic usage by professionals.

Materials are either flammable or non-flammable. Internet posters are inflammable (still correct usage).
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Old 20-10-2016, 12:48   #42
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

Quote:
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Well...reading the fine print in the info sheet of a CO detector that I bought in a German home improvement center, it is telling me that this CO detector is specifically NOT for MARINE use.

Doesn't say "why".

Does anyone know "why"?
It may be cover their ass or relabel it for marine use and triple the price?
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Old 20-10-2016, 13:53   #43
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

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CO2 does the same thing by displacing oxygen. I haven't the slightest as to what dry chemicals do? They won't make dry ice for chilling beer.
When dry chemical extinguishing agent (sodium bicarbonate, baking soda) hits a hot surface it decomposes, releasing CO2. I believe Halon did more than just displace oxygen, (and offend the greenies), but the information is kind of scarce.
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Old 20-10-2016, 14:13   #44
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

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When dry chemical extinguishing agent (sodium bicarbonate, baking soda) hits a hot surface it decomposes, releasing CO2. I believe Halon did more than just displace oxygen, (and offend the greenies), but the information is kind of scarce.
I somewhat thought that. Baking soda was the kitchen cure since I was a kid.

My grandmothers swore by it and I'm 73.
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Old 20-10-2016, 15:05   #45
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Re: Smoke Alarms : Are Home Units Suitable on Boats?

Bill Seal, I'm sorry, but that's not the way dry chemical extinguishers work. They usually do not use sodium bicarbonate (some of the new Type K=kitchen ones do) but monoammunium phosphate, ammonium sulfate, and even mica and silicates, which make them murder on anything electronic. Their action is by forming a crust that separates the burning oil or Class A stuff from the oxygen. Since they do no cooling, they are not very effective on Class A (wood, plastic) materials that hold a lot of heat and may reignite. They are safe around electrical fires and effective against oil; read the ratings on the side of one. Halon is a dense oxygen excluder. It is "heavier" than air, so fills a space excluding oxygen. CO2 will do the same, for far less money, but is not as dense and may drift away if there is any air movement. Neither does any cooling, so their utility with burning fiberglass is limited. For that you need lots of cooling water, which usually is not available, so fiberglass boats burn like greased paper.
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