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Old 09-11-2022, 10:28   #46
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pirate Re: Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

Yeah.. but it's not a heavy duty MOB pole thingy that's the same dimensions deflated more or less that I am suggesting, it's an inflatable balloon.. that expands as it fills. How big is an 11" balloon before its inflated, thumb sized and flat more or less.. so a 3 foot balloon would be maybe palm sized pre inflation.
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Old 09-11-2022, 10:44   #47
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Re: Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

I worked very successfully with mylar party ballons as extremely rugged but still flexible containers for taking air samples. This material is extremely lightweight and robust. I put significant pressure on them and they kept the air for very long time. You need a sharp point to injure a pressurised mylar foil ballon surface. Waves will hardly do much harm to it.

The combination of a 2nd 32g compressed CO2 container with a large mylar ballon in bright yellow or orange colour that is floating freely on top of the water surface would indeed help to significantly improve visibility. I would expect at least 3fold visibility compared to a partially immersed bladder if a live vest.

I would further combine this with or attach the ballon to a dyneema loop kind of „MOB lifesaver“ for retrieval of the person from the water.

I expect
1. much better chance of finding in rough water,
2. much better chance of rescue from water on board

Total weight impact would be less than half the weight of life vests. Acceptable for those that care about their personal chance for rescue, which I do.

I have already implemented the 2. part (dyneema loop) on my life vests. I would be interested to learn a practical and lightweight solution for 1., i.e. a MOB visibility mylar ballon

Jo
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Old 09-11-2022, 10:55   #48
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pirate Re: Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jo_sail View Post
I worked very successfully with mylar party ballons as extremely rugged but still flexible containers for taking air samples. This material is extremely lightweight and robust. I put significant pressure on them and they kept the air for very long time. You need a sharp point to injure a pressurised mylar foil ballon surface. Waves will hardly do much harm to it.

The combination of a 2nd 32g compressed CO2 container with a large mylar ballon in bright yellow or orange colour that is floating freely on top of the water surface would indeed help to significantly improve visibility. I would expect at least 3fold visibility compared to a partially immersed bladder if a live vest.

I would further combine this with or attach the ballon to a dyneema loop kind of „MOB lifesaver“ for retrieval of the person from the water.

I expect
1. much better chance of finding in rough water,
2. much better chance of rescue from water on board

Total weight impact would be less than half the weight of life vests. Acceptable for those that care about their personal chance for rescue, which I do.

I have already implemented the 2. part (dyneema loop) on my life vests. I would be interested to learn a practical and lightweight solution for 1., i.e. a MOB visibility mylar ballon

Jo
See post #10...
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Old 09-11-2022, 13:22   #49
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Re: Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I had an idea for a self inflating balloon fitted in the collar of a purpose built life jacket (crotch strapping harness) with a fine yet strong line (500kilo BS) attached for use in MOB situations.

A fluorescent balloon for increased visibility and around 5metres of line with a ring at the end to which a halyard could be clipped on.

Approach from downwind to pick up the balloon/line then heave to and haul in the MOB on the Lee side of the boat.

Whether it's doable I know not as I have never had the finances or skills to try it out.. just another one of the random thoughts that drift in and out of my head..


The part of the strong line is easy and cheap as DIY including reflective tape on a floating lift handle:

https://www.skipperguide.de/mediawik...FDL13_2021.pdf
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Old 09-11-2022, 13:44   #50
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Re: Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

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Originally Posted by Rumrace View Post
Deep diving gas is not air 78n 21% Ox 1 other guys. Heliox which is helium and 15-17% oxygen
Normal diving air is just compressed dry air.
The nitrogen has a narcotic effect few survive past 200 feet and the oxygen at 21.4 becomes toxic.
breathing helium is cold as heck, rips body heat away so we fill our suits with argon to reflect body heat. Several scuba shops can dial any gas you need. Argon we buy refills
Not quite, in fact miles off The partial pressure which oxygen becomes poisonous varies from diver to diver and can vary each dive. Some work by the RN Navy to find the limits of oxygen toxicity during world war 2 would never be allowed today. However, it proved that there is a huge variance between divers. The book is Oxygen and the Diver by Kenneth Donald and a harrowing read explaining what happens when people breath pure oxygen at the equivalent of 90m, in a recompression chamber. Now a collectors book and priced accordingly.

So its the partial pressure of oxygen that is the problem. 1.6 about the upper limit, 1.4 safer and more common in mixed gas diving. Oxygen at 21.4% can be perfectly safe. We frequently used 40, 60 and 80% nitrox mixtures for decompression without ill effects. Tried argon but wasn't a great improvement, we still got cold. Eating toffees underwater improved moral on long stops and made time appear to pass quicker.
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Old 10-11-2022, 00:23   #51
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Re: Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jo_sail View Post
The combination of a 2nd 32g compressed CO2 container with a large mylar ballon in bright yellow or orange colour that is floating freely on top of the water surface would indeed help to significantly improve visibility. I would expect at least 3fold visibility compared to a partially immersed bladder if a live vest.

CO2 density at 21 C, 1 bara is aprox 1800 g /m3. A 32 g CO2 cartridge holds aprox 0.018m3 of CO2 expanded. That’s 18 litres, a sphere of aprox 32 cm of diameter (12.5 in for the metrically challenged). Not a very “ large mylar baloon”.

One of the largest cartridges of 60 g will fill a sphere of aprox 40 cm of diameter (16 in). Aprox a beach ball.

Will add visibility to a human head surrounded by a PFD collar, but bobbing around at sea level, not much?

The real gain would be to have it flying over the MOB, but then it would have to be helium or similar and some consideration to the entanglement possibilities of the tether must be done.

Maybe the AIS PLB is the answer?
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Old 10-11-2022, 00:32   #52
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Re: Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

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Originally Posted by wholybee View Post
A 10 ft balloon is 500 cubic feet. That works out to about 50lbs(22kg) of liquid CO2.
A 5 ft balloon, probably the smallest to be effective for this use, is 65 cubic feet. That works out to 6.5lbs(2.9 kg) of liquid CO2.

A 10lb/5 kg(a common size) cylinder is about 6" in diameter and 20" tall.

Even without the balloon itself, you would need a backpack to carry a cylinder large enough for a 5 foot balloon. A cylinder for a 10 foot balloon would not fit in a backback.
You are arguing over the specifics rather than the principal.

So make it 3ft diameter...still drastically larger and more visible as an empty mylar ball will be 99% above the water.

Also, just like those inflatable airplane lifejackets, you can add a manual inflation nozzle. If it's just sitting on top of the water, normal air works just fine. Even partially deflated on the surface, it's going to be a bigger target.
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Old 10-11-2022, 04:44   #53
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Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
… you can add a manual inflation nozzle. If it's just sitting on top of the water, normal air works just fine. Even partially deflated on the surface, it's going to be a bigger target.

That is the answer to keep it extremely simple:

The mylar party balloons have a very effective foil valve inside after the inlet. You need a 10 cm straw or piece of PE tube to do it with your lung and mouth. The tube can be sealed with the balloon inlet with a strong rubber band or whipping twine. This is tested in practice:

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In the figure just
1. leave the quick connect away, that is the mouth piece.
2. cut the inner part of the filling tube, so that it does only enter the start but does not go through the foil valve. It will only connect to the inlet of the foil valve. Then the valve continues to do its work and let air in but not out.

Ballon, twine and tube are extremely small and lightweight. Perhaps 10g and 5$

The only drawback: you need to be conscious and have enough air left to fill the balloon.

Certainly it is a good chance to significantly increase visibility with minimum additional equipment, which can be fitted inside your personal life jacket.

Now we just need the bright colour ballons, which come from one company in US but a distributed globally, large size round shape is 28 inch = 70 cm diameter.

I will construct one for testing asap. Perhaps I have one small 16 inch balloon left from my research. It had a pig printing from a child movie of the 1990s and I got it free of charge as leftover from the anagram company https://anagramballoons.com. Large ballon size and bright orange or yellow would be better!
PE hydraulic tube 8mm OD at hand.

I am keen to see others doing a practical test! Send a photo please.

Jo
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Old 10-11-2022, 06:54   #54
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Re: Silly idea - mylar balloons as safety gear?

Second drawback is drift: If you want to keep your position in strong wind, then a big balloon is not the right thing.

This also means that simple whipping twine may be insufficient for the connection from MOB to balloon. A thin dyneema like for a rescue loop or even thinner can do it.
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