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Old 21-07-2017, 15:10   #61
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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Imho, it does.

Or else we have to say that the hundreds of people who climb Mount Everest every year have no right to say they did. For they all use guides, ropes and sherpas.

One rounds the Cape, one is a capehorner. Let's not get entangled in old bearded men telling the charter guests what to think.

It is just that the world is changing: we have new skills, new tools, new information. What was very difficult yesterday does not have to be difficult today.

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b.
No, one is not.... it would be a bit like someone who had been dropped onto the top of Everest by helicopter calling themselves a mountaineer.....

The Alcamar at Cabo de Hornos will give you a certificado with all sorts of fancy stamps and stuff that says you have passed the Horn...still doesn't make you a 'Cape Horner'.....
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Old 21-07-2017, 18:43   #62
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

What is your preferred Cold weather gear? Head to toe inside to outside.
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Old 22-07-2017, 00:17   #63
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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What is your preferred Cold weather gear? Head to toe inside to outside.
Well I'm kitted out for temps around 0C to 5C plus wind chill..... at sea in the 40's not often as cold as that but wind chill is still a factor.

OK...starting in the middle bit.... a pair of boxers.... followed by https://au.icebreaker.com/en/mens-un...3053_color=001 and https://au.icebreaker.com/en/mens-un...3032_color=001

Mine are icebreaker but a few years old so not quite the same.. I think mine are pure merino....

Anything from 1 to 3 layers of this weight at each end depending on the day...

Followed by a layer of 260 up top Tech Top Long Sleeve Half Zip - Icebreaker (AU) and some North Face down south similar to this.. Trail Men's Lightweight Fleece Pants v4 - Black so I don't scare the ladies...

On deck - if required- Gill OS2 jacket and a pair of rather old Musto legs that I bought s/h for about $70 some ten years ago.

On my feet?

I've just graduated to these socks.. https://www.bivouac.co.nz/icebreaker...crew-sock.html

Then Teva jandals, Bata white meatworker's boots, or Sorel Caribous depending on conditions. The Batas are fine when its wet and good for dinghy work but wreck your feet if worn long term...Ugg slippers for down stairs....

On my head something like this https://www.bivouac.co.nz/clothing/m...rrior-hat.html to keepmy ears warm.... plus a sun hat..

I'm still working on the gloves .. I probably have a dozen pairs...

I like Icebreaker but it has gone a bit poofy in recent years with 'this years colours and styles' Swanndri is also good .
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Old 22-07-2017, 01:20   #64
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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. . . I'm still working on the gloves .. I probably have a dozen pairs...
.
I sail a lot in temps around +5C -- common winter temperature on the South Coast of England. And occasionally down to 0 or a bit below.

I also snowmobile in the winter -- down to -30C and wind chill probably near absolute zero

I don't find staying warm all that hard -- with Goretex on top and polyprop on the bottom and enough layers in between.

Except the hands! I probably have TWO dozen pairs of gloves, and none of this is really right. The hands are a real problem. I even think about getting some with electric heating in them -- like they make for snowmobilers.

The face is also a bit of a problem when it's windy. I use ski masks, but a total solution would have to be something like a snowmobile helmet.
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Old 22-07-2017, 01:29   #65
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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.....

Except the hands! I probably have TWO dozen pairs of gloves, and none of this is really right. The hands are a real problem. I even think about getting some with electric heating in them -- like they make for snowmobilers.
Well.. I actually did have TWENTY FIVE pairs.... but the dog et all me possum wool ones....

Possum wool is good for basic warm in the cabin...

Outside I'm thinking of going back to neoprene... as suggested here recently
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Old 22-07-2017, 01:34   #66
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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Well.. I actually did have TWENTY FIVE pairs.... but the dog et all me possum wool ones....

Possum wool is good for basic warm in the cabin...

Outside I'm thinking of going back to neoprene... as suggested here recently
Ha, ha.

I don't think I've ever seen neoprene gloves. Have to google that. I hate having cold hands.

What do you do about the face, Ping?
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Old 22-07-2017, 01:54   #67
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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Ha, ha.

I don't think I've ever seen neoprene gloves. Have to google that. I hate having cold hands.

What do you do about the face, Ping?
Dive or fishermen's gloves.. I have a pair on the boat that I bought maybe 25 years ago that were designed for use by Tasmanian fly fishermen ( end of thumb and next finger missing) ... crew found then recently and swears by them.. this sort of thing

Neoprene 2 Slits Full Finger Fishing Jigging Sun Gloves Waterproof Winter Gear

3mm Neoprene Dive Gloves with Palm Grip | eBay

Cheap as... worth a try.. or I could just find my dive bag....

Face? It doesn't really bother me.. as long as I can keep my forehead covered ( see my OR style bonnet in the post above).... my nose must still have a good blood supply .. it does still glow in the dark a bit but I have always put that down to the port...
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Old 22-07-2017, 02:13   #68
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Dive or fishermen's gloves.. I have a pair on the boat that I bought maybe 25 years ago that were designed for use by Tasmanian fly fishermen ( end of thumb and next finger missing) ... crew found then recently and swears by them.. this sort of thing

Neoprene 2 Slits Full Finger Fishing Jigging Sun Gloves Waterproof Winter Gear

3mm Neoprene Dive Gloves with Palm Grip | eBay

Cheap as... worth a try.. or I could just find my dive bag....

Face? It doesn't really bother me.. as long as I can keep my forehead covered ( see my OR style bonnet in the post above).... my nose must still have a good blood supply .. it does still glow in the dark a bit but I have always put that down to the port...
Thanks; hot tip. I'll try those out this winter.

My favorite ski mask, actually, is made of neoprene. Looks like something from horror movie, involving chain saws, but works a treat. Don't know why I never looked for neoprene gloves.
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Old 22-07-2017, 04:23   #69
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

Gloves are the biggest issue by far. But if you can sort the boat out so you aren't exposed continuously life gets so much easier. And if you have a good way to dry stuff, esp socks and gloves even better. Lots of spares so you can rotate them.

Ski gloves don't seem to be waterproof enough for outside, but are too waterproof to dry easily... I'd skip anything breathable and go for something like the icelandic 100% waterproof fisherman mitten, with thinner non waterproof gloves inside that are easily dried and swapped out.

But in all honesty you really need a bunch of different gloves. Each has different uses and you end up swaping gloves all the time. For example I'd use my waterproof mittens for watchkeeping in the cockpit, but I would flick them off and switch to waterproof gloves for deck work, then switch back to warm hands back up.

Secret is not to let your hands get really cold otherwise its real hard to warm them up again. Those chemical hand warmers work a treat if hands have gotten too cold to self warm.

Ill second the icebreaker gear, or any other pure wool for a base layer. It just doesn't get smelly like synthetics. Ive lived in for weeks and its not gotten disgustingly smelly like polypro would have. Overtop I just layer up with any old polarfleece stuff. I dont like the windproof stuff as is isn't as breathable as the cheaper fleece. So ideally a base layer of thin icebreaker (or similar 100% wool gear), then thicker icebreaker. Then thin polarfleece then a thick polarfleece, then wet weather gear. You seldom need all this even in antarctica and you will overheat real quick if you are doing anything physical, legs aren't so bad. I just go a merino thermals and thick fleece pants.

The key is managing your heat balance. Work to hard and you overheat, sweat and then freeze. Dont do enough and you start to freeze. Its often better to slightly underdress and keep moving. If you can keep watch from inside or under a warm dodger its ideal. You duck out into the cold only when you need to work, ie reefing or sail changes and usually only for a reasonably short time so you can underdress a bit and then warm up once you are done. That way you don't sweat. I regulate heat while working by removing hats and scarfs if I am starting to get warm. I also pace myself so I don't overheat.

Heres a few thoughts from a few years ago.

http://snowpetrelsailing.blogspot.co...water.html?m=1
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Old 22-07-2017, 04:30   #70
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

I've experimented with neoprene gloves. Didn't really do it for me. I'd chuck them if I had to stick my hands unto suoercold water, or maybe for handling wet lines. But I found my hands steadily got colder and colder if I left them on. Ok for kayaking in Antarctica on a warm day. Also hard to get on and off quickly and hands get damp, which speads into your dry mitts. They do have their place onboard, but they are for short term use.
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Old 22-07-2017, 04:46   #71
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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I've experimented with neoprene gloves. Didn't really do it for me. I'd chuck them if I had to stick my hands unto suoercold water, or maybe for handling wet lines. But I found my hands steadily got colder and colder if I left them on. Ok for kayaking in Antarctica on a warm day. Also hard to get on and off quickly and hands get damp, which speads into your dry mitts. They do have their place onboard, but they are for short term use.

Hmmm ...yep that sounds right... crew uses them for dinghy work first thing in AM.... between out of bed and under weigh ie the first hour of the day I will get through three pairs ( assorted) ... after that one pair lasts all day... unless its raining.

On passage offshore its not so much of an issue as it doesn't rain that much and isn't that cold.... talking 40s here... not Antarctica...
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Old 22-07-2017, 05:52   #72
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

I am from a few K's north of Cape Leeuwin Western Australia and have visited the area from shore many times all year round I have no ambition to round the Cape by sea but have surfed and kite surfed the area many years Gigantic Swells crash here.
Thanks for the Vitto video he was a special sailor .
Another record holder currently on his tenth circumnavigation ( albeit this time a little more sedatley) could give some insight to the area your concerned about his name is Jon Sanders .
He is a very interesting Character.
First twice around all Capes including equator solo .first around Antarctica solo.
Oh he also went around the capes and equator three times non stop solo ???
Longest solo voyage longest time at sea.
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Old 22-07-2017, 06:56   #73
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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No, one is not.... it would be a bit like someone who had been dropped onto the top of Everest by helicopter calling themselves a mountaineer.....

The Alcamar at Cabo de Hornos will give you a certificado with all sorts of fancy stamps and stuff that says you have passed the Horn...still doesn't make you a 'Cape Horner'.....
With all respect, my opinion differs vastly from yours.

I am against all church like structures where old white bearded men (with earings) form definitions of who deserves a name or not.

If we are to live by any definitions, the definitions must be fluent, created in a democratic way, and open to review and to justified change. In other words, the definitions must be open source, not proprietary. Because the world we are living in suffers where self-proclaimed groups tell the rest what a spade is.

A capehorner is a person who has has sailed round the Cape. A person who has set foot on Mt Everest has set their foot on it. Now from this end we can look for adjustments of such base definitions, not from the other 'well established (by whom?) and respected' (by whom?) end.

A spade is a spade, as Virginia Woolf aptly noted.

BTW A chopper, as far as I can remember could not take you to the top of Mt. Everest. (Yes, Didier did land there ONCE but it was an extreme stunt, in best weather, and with no load). And this too with time may change AND THEN, but only then, we may have to adjust our view of who did what and who only faked. For the time being, one must actually climb it (well, most of it - from the base camp onwrads).

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Old 22-07-2017, 08:18   #74
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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With all respect, my opinion differs vastly from yours.

I am against all church like structures where old white bearded men (with earings) form definitions of who deserves a name or not.

If we are to live by any definitions, the definitions must be fluent, created in a democratic way, and open to review and to justified change. In other words, the definitions must be open source, not proprietary. Because the world we are living in suffers where self-proclaimed groups tell the rest what a spade is.

A capehorner is a person who has has sailed round the Cape. A person who has set foot on Mt Everest has set their foot on it. Now from this end we can look for adjustments of such base definitions, not from the other 'well established (by whom?) and respected' (by whom?) end.

A spade is a spade, as Virginia Woolf aptly noted.

BTW A chopper, as far as I can remember could not take you to the top of Mt. Everest. (Yes, Didier did land there ONCE but it was an extreme stunt, in best weather, and with no load). And this too with time may change AND THEN, but only then, we may have to adjust our view of who did what and who only faked. For the time being, one must actually climb it (well, most of it - from the base camp onwrads).

Cheers,
barnakiel
"Climbing Everest" can be somewhat misleading though it would be difficult to change the criteria. We keep seeing more and more surgeons and CEO's who return to camp and find their sleeping bag has been fluffed with a mint placed on top of it. The sherpa's carry all of the weight. The guides make all of the calculations.

It is still a supreme test of endurance, like running a marathon in some ways. But the old image of "climbing Everest" has been tarnished by those who have everything done for them except for moving their feet.
One should still respect the accomplishment but it certainly does not always mean that the climber is a highly skilled mountaineer.

Riding on a large boat that rounds the Horn means absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. Those who issue certificates for the endeavor are little more than Horn Whores.
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Old 22-07-2017, 13:47   #75
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Re: Sailing the Fierce 50's

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With all respect, my opinion differs vastly from yours.............
BTW A chopper, as far as I can remember could not take you to the top of Mt. Everest. (Yes, Didier did land there ONCE but it was an extreme stunt, in best weather, and with no load). And this too with time may change AND THEN, but only then, we may have to adjust our view of who did what and who only faked. For the time being, one must actually climb it (well, most of it - from the base camp onwards).

Cheers,
barnakiel
That was a hypothetical.....

So we have three sorts of Cape Horners, them who have sailed there off shore non stop from north of 508S, them who have sailed there via Patagonia, and them as flew to Williams and jumped a charter..... if some p****** a*** from the latter group told me he was a 'Cape Horner' or -heaven forbid- put his elbow on the table I would tell him that he was a w*****.
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