Riding out a storm, sealed up tight down below. Watch out for CO2.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Except that sealing yourself down below is the best way to actually experience a knock down & roll over.


Who drives the boat when you guys are sealed down below? Or do you have one of those modern driver-less boats???


Cheers,
b.

The fortunately few times I've been in such a situation, my boat's been either hove to or hanging from a sea anchor, and I've been down below inventing new curse words after I'd used up the ones I know in three languages.

There was nothing to do on deck. But then, my boat will heave to and sit like a swan with its modified full keel.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Except that sealing yourself down below is the best way to actually experience a knock down & roll over.


Who drives the boat when you guys are sealed down below? Or do you have one of those modern driver-less boats???


Cheers,
b.

Full autonomous electric autopilot, or traditional windvane steering or in a storm just hove-to.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Full autonomous electric autopilot, or traditional windvane steering or in a storm just hove-to.

Or Jordan Series Drogue (which would be my choice).


I do think that in a really bad storm, being sealed up below is the right place to be.

[barnakiel]

Hove to this hove to that. Stop and think again.



If you were hove to that was not a storm, just a patch of rough weather.


Once the waves begin to break you are dead if you are hove to.


Or is your boat 60ft plus and her dry weight is like say 100 tons?


We have different definitions of storms and heavy weather. There is no need to seal yourselves up in heavy going, you can just sail thru it.


And conversely, if the waves are hell and break and you can't sail anymore, this may be a smart thing to be inside (ha! we all did, no?) rather than outside BUT at times like this you nearly warrant yourself a capsize, if you are hove to. Unless, as said above, your boat is big and heavy enough to withstand being repetitively hit by walls of white water.


And if she is, then why are you hove to? Why not keep on going on.


Esp. since 99% claim the autopilot is doing the heavy lifting anyways. But AP can't see an oncoming wave. Not yet.



Get out more sail some real rough moments this will teach you not to lay hove too IN A STORM.


By storm I understand real bad thing, with many waves breaking. Because 64kts of wind or plus is not a storm, just high winds.


STORM is a sea state thing. A mindset thing.


Or else disregard mine and others' experiences (no Google out there, eh?) and go hoving to. Your choice. Just do not come back crying you got capsized and bruised and the rigging is gone. Now what.


Cheers,
b.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Hove to this hove to that. Stop and think again.

If you were hove to that was not a storm, just a patch of rough weather.

Once the waves begin to break you are dead if you are hove to.

Or is your boat 60ft plus and her dry weight is like say 100 tons?

We have different definitions of storms and heavy weather. There is no need to seal yourselves up in heavy going, you can just sail thru it.

And conversely, if the waves are hell and break and you can't sail anymore, this may be a smart thing to be inside (ha! we all did, no?) rather than outside BUT at times like this you nearly warrant yourself a capsize, if you are hove to. Unless, as said above, your boat is big and heavy enough to withstand being repetitively hit by walls of white water.

And if she is, then why are you hove to? Why not keep on going on.

Esp. since 99% claim the autopilot is doing the heavy lifting anyways. But AP can't see an oncoming wave. Not yet.

Get out more sail some real rough moments this will teach you not to lay hove too IN A STORM.

By storm I understand real bad thing, with many waves breaking. Because 64kts of wind or plus is not a storm, just high winds.

STORM is a sea state thing. A mindset thing.

Or else disregard mine and others' experiences (no Google out there, eh?) and go hoving to. Your choice. Just do not come back crying you got capsized and bruised and the rigging is gone. Now what.

Cheers,
b.

barnakiel, I am not sure that is the correct assessment. Certainly a storm may require some storm tactics. I prefer heaving-to, (over drogue or sea anchor) and I disagree that it will then guarantee a capsize. While hove to, our boat, and most I suspect, will be pointing into the wind and waves, off about 40 degrees or so, and moving slightly forward and leeward. This is probably the best angle to take waves anyhow and you could hardly do better attempting to keep going by sailing.

However, I agree that continuing to sail, if possible, and if the sails permit it, is even better. We heave to in order to slow the boat down, virtually stop it, when conditions become intolerable. Upwind the boat launches off waves and pounds. This is tiresome, and we heave to so the storm can pass. It will. However, in 55,000 miles of ocean and 33 yrs on this boat we have never really needed to heave to, but have done so (in the Bashi Channel) once for a rest.

Also, it is a point that perhaps to much focus is given to those conditions which would be considered beyond the typical storm, not just with breaking waves, but curling breakers. This is so rare as to be almost in the never happen category unless you are prone to sailing in high latitudes or during hurricane season. That is avoidable. Obsessing about what to do during those situations is not a productive use of one's time. What is more important is thinking about what you are going to do when a more typical storm hits, winds over 50 knots and big waves. Most of us will encounter these if we spend enough time on the oceans. In that situation going below and sealing the boat and worrying about exhausting the supply of oxygen is really not the right approach. It is better to keep sailing, or heave to, and have someone go outside from time to time, which refreshes the air.

This thread is a big worry about something will will not happen to almost anyone, it's like building a "safe room" in your house to hide from a terrorist squad, and there are a lot more important things to think about.

[capn_billl]

Having been in a "rough patch of weather", I've found things below get very drippy when waves break over the boat.

I too have worried about things getting stuffy below, when sealed up tight.

Fortunately unless you are overturned things aren't tight. Few of us have hermetically sealed hatchways, that means every time the wind changes, or a wave breaks over the pressure change causes a fair percentage of air exchange with the outdoors.

Having slept at anchor with the boat as airtight as I could get it, I awoke the next morning with the air a little humid, and stale, but plenty of oxygen, and co2 not to high to breath.

But that was an 8 hour period.

If you stuffed wet rags into all your vents, and around the door, you could conceivably reduce the exchange of air to dangerous levels if you remained below more than a day.

As few boats have oxygen level monitoring we may never know if some "heart attacks", may have been triggered by low oxygen/high co2 levels in addition to stress.

So it may be a consideration to when below for an extended time to pop a hatch for a minute to let some fresh air in.

This obviously wasn't a consideration in the age of wooden ships, but a modern boat is a large floating plastic bottle.

[MartinR]

As an answer to barnakiel.

The worst weather I have ever sailed in was a winter storm in the Bay of Biscay. 6 days of gale force winds, culminating in a force 11 with 40 feet significant wave height. And, yes we were hove to and came through it alive with only minor damage. This was on a 51´ heavy displacement double ended ketch.

I guess even for these type of boats, conditions can become tough enough that you have to scud, but then you are talking hurricanes or bad cross-seas. A normal storm is very survivable hove-to.

Modern fin keel boats behave differently, they are better off being sailed actively. But - if this is safer for the crew, I can not say. It also depends on crew size, a small crew may not be able to hand steer the boat in these conditions for days on end. Fatigue can easily become a factor.

[GordMay]

As an example of how effective heaving to can be to endure through heavy weather, 26 sailors hove to in the infamous Fastnet Race, where 18 people died in a horrific storm – none of those boats suffered any serious damage, let alone rolled or capsized.

[Buzzman]

And enough sailors have reported being rolled or pitchpoled while attempting to sail downwind, even without sails up, as well as hove to.

It also depends on where you are when the storm hits, and what is to leeward - for example, if you were somewhat inshore in Biscay during a strong westerly gale (i.e. most in that area) then the Frech coast can be especially nasty.

Mid-Atlantic, away form islands or coasts, maybe hove to or sail downwind.

But, generally-speaking, in a "storm" you probably don't want to simply heave to, much less sail downwind, as this only prolongs the time you are in the storm. A sea-anchor or drogue is a better bet, also for inshore, to stop the boat in the water (or significantly slow it's progress downwind).

And, for the record a "storm" is, officially, Beaufort scale 10 or above. Winds above 48kts/90km/h/55mph, seas 9m/29ft and above. So if you have a 30-ft boat, the wave crests are as tall as your boat is long. Or near mast height. And potentially breaking over you. Not pleasant at all.

Beaufort number 10 - Storm / Whole Gale

Wind speeds: 48-55 knots (55-63 mph; 89-102 kph; 24.5-28.4 mps) At sea: Very high waves with long overhanging crests; resulting foam in great patches is blown in dense white streaks along the direction of the wind; on the whole, the surface of the sea takes a white appearance; tumbling of the sea becomes heavy and shock-like; visibility affected
Sea disturbance number: 7
Probable wave height: 9 m (29 ft); (20-30 ft; 6-9 m)
On land: Seldom experienced inland; trees uprooted; considerable structural damage occurs



https://www.anbg.gov.au/jrc/kayak/beaufort.html

[jtsailjt]

I've only seen really bad conditions once but it was in the Gulf Stream so the waves were bigger and steeper than in most places. I didn't heave to but instead kept on sailing with greatly reduced sail and this allowed me to zig and zag in order to miss the parts of the waves that were breaking and couldn't have done that with an autopilot because it required a lot of active steering. But I was lucky that the night it happened I had a full moon and the sky wasn't entirely overcast so I could see the huge breaking waves and swerve accordingly. If it had been a moonless night so I hadn't been able to see, maybe heaving to would have been the better option. I think it's a complicated decision based on your boat and your crews abilities and the wind strength and the wave size and shape so it's tough to say what the right choice is unless you have accurate information and take all that into account.

Regarding removing and plugging the dorades, during the above incident, with waves regularly breaking over the deck from the bow to the dodger of an aft cockpit 44' boat, with the dorade vents approximately abeam the mast, even without anything close to a rollover, almost every wave that came aboard turned the dorade vents momentarily into something resembling a salt water shower head, what a mess down below! I probably should have at least gone forward and spun them around 180 degrees so they'd face away from oncoming waves but by the time I figured that out, I didn't dare to. My present boat is a center cockpit boat with dorades located higher, and further aft, behind the cockpit, so waves breaking over the bow wouldn't have the same effect. One problem with sealing up the dorades and opening the companionway once in awhile for some fresh air is the if you leave your companionway open just an inch or two, unless your hatch boards are secured, as soon as you get rolled, they are apt to slide right out and be lost so now you have a huge hole that can't be sealed.

[Montanan]

How to ride out a storm and not be sealed up tight but not wet below either:

Shift the orientation of the dorades so as to be away from the waves and wind. They spin for a reason.

Permanently, install proper tubing / piping to route the air from the dorade vent all the way down to the sole, or preferrably all the way down to the sole, or into the bilge AND ATHWARTSHIP of the dorade such that if the boat is rolled to its side or even over no significant amount of water will flow into the air delivery tube / pipe and travel all the way to the sole or bilge. Water does not flow uphill so make the delivery route to make the water flow uphill if the vessel is laid over or upside down. The floating ball valve should inhibit much of the water from entering the ventilation tube / pipe if the boat is upright. Dorades are constructed to largely separate the water from the air.

Fixture a water catchment below the exit of the tubing / pipe to contain any water that spills through the dorade venting so as to keep the water from making a mess of the sole, and / or better yet cause the air ventilation tube / pipe to exit into the bilge where a pump can lift and remove any water entry overboard.

Breath easy.

Don't open too many bottles of Champagne at one time as the CO2 bubbles might cause a hazardous displacement of oxygen.

Note exposure to carbon monoxide is much more dangerous than exposure to carbon Dioxide as carbon monoxide competes for oxygen uptake in the body and it is the lack of oxygen uptake that is the real hazard.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by GordMay

As an example of how effective heaving to can be to endure through heavy weather, 26 sailors hove to in the infamous Fastnet Race, where 18 people died in a horrific storm – none of those boats suffered any serious damage, let alone rolled or capsized.

That is exactly the key point Gord on when to Hove to .....
...if remaining on deck seriously puts your crew at risk , the captain is very foolish to put the boat ahead of the souls on board

Have survived extreme storms in December about 80nm off the Oregon coast in an alloy 56' Camper & Nicholson hove to.

3 freighter's in the area all had mayday situations and we got pounded by breaking waves for 15 hr's before we could go on deck.

Compass binnacle bent and compass smashed.
Anything not strongly lashed down was gone.
Transmission bolts sheered.

But 9 crew survived without a scratch.

I honestly don't know if hove to tactics work well on a multihull...
But for a strong metal mono....trust in your boat and protect your crew!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Modern fin keel boats behave differently, they are better off being sailed actively

My (not so modern) fin keel spade rudder ex racing boat DOES NOT behave differently and is not better off being sailed actively because of crew fatigue (unless you have a full crew on board).

We heave to with a reefed mainsail sheeted tight and a small jib backwinded and the helm tied down. To get into that position you simply tack the boat then tack back without releasing the jib on the second tack, and hold the helm down until you stop.

This is quite stable.

We've done it to get rest under close to extreme conditions.

We can also "heave to" with mainsail alone, sheeted moderately tight, and the monitor steering, about 3 knots, to windward.

Fin keel boats are as capable or more so than some other hull keel rudder configurations.