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Old 08-04-2018, 06:40   #121
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
A key point which avoids the risk of a second casualty.

Pete
Naturally, no rescue swimmer if it's not absolutely necessary.

It shouldn't be necessary if the casualty is conscious and still vigorous.

In this case, if he's in harness, you just throw a rope to him and pull him in close enough to get the lifting tackle to him, and then he just snaps the lifting tackle to his lifting straps. If not, then lifesling. Maybe with an additional sling under the legs.

I guess for the unharnessed, conscious, and vigorous casualty there is no need to faff around with a parbuckle -- the lifesling will be faster to deploy -- I have it in a bag on my pushpit.

But I have not been able to come up with a realistic way to get an injured, unconscious, or debilitated person back on board without someone swimming.

With a life at stake, I think it's worth taking a reasonable risk with the life of a second person. In really hairy sea conditions, especially at night, that risk might not be reasonable. That would be a hell of a judgement to have to make -- to make a decision to let an alive but injured person die because it's too risky to put a swimmer into the water. Hope to God I never have to make a call like that.
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Old 08-04-2018, 06:54   #122
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Naturally, no rescue swimmer if it's not absolutely necessary.

It shouldn't be necessary if the casualty is conscious and still vigorous.

In this case, if he's in harness, you just throw a rope to him and pull him in close enough to get the lifting tackle to him, and then he just snaps the lifting tackle to his lifting straps. If not, then lifesling. Maybe with an additional sling under the legs.

I guess for the unharnessed, conscious, and vigorous casualty there is no need to faff around with a parbuckle -- the lifesling will be faster to deploy -- I have it in a bag on my pushpit.

But I have not been able to come up with a realistic way to get an injured, unconscious, or debilitated person back on board without someone swimming.

With a life at stake, I think it's worth taking a reasonable risk with the life of a second person. In really hairy sea conditions, especially at night, that risk might not be reasonable. That would be a hell of a judgement to have to make -- to make a decision to let an alive but injured person die because it's too risky to put a swimmer into the water. Hope to God I never have to make a call like that.
I think its a time related thing.
As time goes on the MOB is more debilitated
Get the Lifesaver deployed to someone previously lectured in what to do

The safest course, and its not totally safe, is to let Lifesaver do its job
and to have a swimmer prepared to go over the side and rescue our man
Ultimately Im the skipper and my hand is up for that, thats my place

In this world you cant save everyone. It seems to me this is the place to begin to reduce the losses
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Old 08-04-2018, 07:27   #123
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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With a life at stake, I think it's worth taking a reasonable risk with the life of a second person. In really hairy sea conditions, especially at night, that risk might not be reasonable. That would be a hell of a judgement to have to make -- to make a decision to let an alive but injured person die because it's too risky to put a swimmer into the water. Hope to God I never have to make a call like that.
Wow, just wow is all I have to say. “To put a swimmer into the water,” and who might that “swimmer” or “second person” be? Is Mr. Dockhead on the short list?

On our boat, my husband is the one who goes forward in rough conditions or goes up the mast; he’d never ask or expect anyone else to do something he didn’t intend to do himself. Personally, I wouldn’t want to be on a boat that’s launching swimmers in poor condtions.

Pam
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Old 08-04-2018, 07:57   #124
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
Wow, just wow is all I have to say. “To put a swimmer into the water,” and who might that “swimmer” or “second person” be? Is Mr. Dockhead on the short list?

On our boat, my husband is the one who goes forward in rough conditions or goes up the mast; he’d never ask or expect anyone else to do something he didn’t intend to do himself. Personally, I wouldn’t want to be on a boat that’s launching swimmers in poor condtions.

Pam
So what would you do if you had a MOB who was unconscious or debilitated and so unable to hold a rope or put on a sling or snap on a shackle? Say you manage to locate and maneuver up to the casualty -- how would you recover the person back on board?

That's the issue we are discussing.

And if you don't know, I suggest you read the thread. We've gotten a lot of highly qualified input, including from a SAR professional.
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I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 08-04-2018, 08:04   #125
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Wow, just wow is all I have to say. ďTo put a swimmer into the water,Ē and who might that ďswimmerĒ or ďsecond personĒ be? Is Mr. Dockhead on the short list?

On our boat, my husband is the one who goes forward in rough conditions or goes up the mast; heíd never ask or expect anyone else to do something he didnít intend to do himself. Personally, I wouldnít want to be on a boat thatís launching swimmers in poor condtions.

Pam
obviously, when husband goes over the side he's in deep trouble
who lives with that?
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Old 08-04-2018, 08:08   #126
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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So what would you do if you had a MOB who was unconscious or debilitated and so unable to hold a rope or put on a sling or snap on a shackle? Say you manage to locate and maneuver up to the casualty -- how would you recover the person back on board?

That's the issue we are discussing.

And if you don't know, I suggest you read the thread. We've gotten a lot of highly qualified input, including from a SAR professional.
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Old 08-04-2018, 08:11   #127
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
Testosterone is clouding your vision.
Maybe you could answer the question.

Possible answers could be:

1. Leave them to die; I ain't putting no one in the water.

2. Call on magic angels to pull them out.

3. Put a properly prepared, trained, and equipped swimmer into the water -- as suggested by an actual SAR professional in this thread.

Or maybe there's some different answer?
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 08-04-2018, 08:51   #128
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Maybe you could answer the question.

Possible answers could be:

1. Leave them to die; I ain't putting no one in the water.

2. Call on magic angels to pull them out.

3. Put a properly prepared, trained, and equipped swimmer into the water -- as suggested by an actual SAR professional in this thread.

Or maybe there's some different answer?
We subscribe to the common sense solutions offered up by Morganscloud and seasoned cruising couples like ourselves. Youíll notice in my picture that Iím wearing a life jacket and tether which is attached to the boat, and so is my husband.

No rescue divers are needed or necessary.

Iím quickly discovering a predominately dismissive tone on this thread and forum, which is the reason why I suppose there are so few female contributors.

Iíll leave you fellows to figure things out, Iím sure youíll know whatís best.

Pam
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Old 08-04-2018, 09:29   #129
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
We subscribe to the common sense solutions offered up by Morganscloud and seasoned cruising couples like ourselves. Youíll notice in my picture that Iím wearing a life jacket and tether which is attached to the boat, and so is my husband.

No rescue divers are needed or necessary.

Iím quickly discovering a predominately dismissive tone on this thread and forum, which is the reason why I suppose there are so few female contributors.

Iíll leave you fellows to figure things out, Iím sure youíll know whatís best.

Pam
Obviously it's better to stay on board. No one will disagree with that!

But what if you have in injured person in the water? Do you think that the right approach is to just not think about it?

And being tethered to the boat doesn't guarantee that you won't find yourself in such a situation. On the contrary, getting swept overboard while still tethered is probably worse than going over the side without a tether. A lot of people die this way -- we discussed it in another thread. If you are lucky enough for someone to cut you free before you drown, you might very well end up unconscious in the water.

A "predominantly dismissive tone in this thread" -- that's a good one! Read back through the thread, and you will see that there is only one person posting in this manner. The rest of us have been having a very polite and very useful discussion. Even the most knowledgeable people here -- Pete, with military experience and extensive training as a diver, Zulu40, with professional level training and experience in search and rescue, Thinwater, and Evans -- are curious and open-minded and interested in the ideas of others. Only one person in this thread came in devoid of curiosity, insisting on a simplistic, silver-bullet solution to the complex question being discussed, dismissing sweepingly all the other knowledge being exchanged ("forget all that stuff; all you need to know is . . . "). So, dismissive tone? That's pretty funny.
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 08-04-2018, 09:36   #130
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
We subscribe to the common sense solutions offered up by Morganscloud and seasoned cruising couples like ourselves. Youíll notice in my picture that Iím wearing a life jacket and tether which is attached to the boat, and so is my husband.

No rescue divers are needed or necessary.

Iím quickly discovering a predominately dismissive tone on this thread and forum, which is the reason why I suppose there are so few female contributors.

Iíll leave you fellows to figure things out, Iím sure youíll know whatís best.

Pam
Just on putting a swimmer in the water

To be clear, it is just those sorts of risks we are attempting to quantify, evaluate and resolve. Most skippers would face this reluctance, but the dilemma stands, what do we do? Is the answer nothing?

The first principle was to assist a MOB, which grew to include an otherwise incapacitated person back into the boat, which after some minutes they may well be. If the pay to view blog of Morganscloud has some better way of rescuing a hypothermic person back into the boat, frankly Im all ears because what I saw of their list of '20 Things I Have Learned About Person Overboard Prevention' doesnt cut it. More especially so when the victim might not be from your boat.

Otherwise, I frankly find looking over the rail of a boat at some drowning person probably slightly more 'uncomfortable' than fronting their spouse and children when we got back. Men are such cowards ...
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Old 08-04-2018, 09:37   #131
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

So, getting back to the subject.

I've been reading (between boat jobs) various sources, and looking at Youtube videos.

This video:



is surely worth watching over and over again.

Notice that the casualty is IN THE COCKPIT, and has her tether in her hand, when a little splash of a boarding sea just tips her over so that she falls straight through the lifelines. This is really chilling and I hope should help all of us avoid feeling too confident that just because we are pretty careful and are mostly clipped in, that means we just can't go overboard and don't need to worry about it.

EDIT AFTER READING ZULU40'S POST: And this is a perfect confirmation of what ZULU40 posted just above -- "prevention doesn't cut it". Otherwise known as "It can't happen to me; therefore I won't worry about it." Falling overboard can and does happen to anyone, no matter how careful. I've been overboard twice myself. It's the biggest single risk of ocean sailing, and is worth quite a bit of thought, preparation and training to mitigate -- not eliminate, which is not possible.



But secondly -- notice that she is being recovered by another crewman in an INFLATED PFD hanging from a halyard. They succeed in the end, but doesn't it look shambolic? Notice how the casualty is dunked in the water on the roll? Doesn't look like a good way to do it, to me, reinforcing something Thinwater (I think) said earlier in the thread.
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 08-04-2018, 10:17   #132
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
So, getting back to the subject.

I've been reading (between boat jobs) various sources, and looking at Youtube videos.

This video:



is surely worth watching over and over again.

Notice that the casualty is IN THE COCKPIT, and has her tether in her hand, when a little splash of a boarding sea just tips her over so that she falls straight through the lifelines. This is really chilling and I hope should help all of us avoid feeling too confident that just because we are pretty careful and are mostly clipped in, that means we just can't go overboard and don't need to worry about it.

EDIT AFTER READING ZULU40'S POST: And this is a perfect confirmation of what ZULU40 posted just above -- "prevention doesn't cut it". Otherwise known as "It can't happen to me; therefore I won't worry about it." Falling overboard can and does happen to anyone, no matter how careful. I've been overboard twice myself. It's the biggest single risk of ocean sailing, and is worth quite a bit of thought, preparation and training to mitigate -- not eliminate, which is not possible.

But secondly -- notice that she is being recovered by another crewman in an INFLATED PFD hanging from a halyard. They succeed in the end, but doesn't it look shambolic? Notice how the casualty is dunked in the water on the roll? Doesn't look like a good way to do it, to me, reinforcing something Thinwater (I think) said earlier in the thread.
Good find
I thought I saw nets on the lifelines forward, but there werent any at the cockpit. She literally went over the side like a bar of soap.

I thought they appeared to respond quickly, but then the video had cuts to it. When we pick it up again the boat was turned right around, a crew had jumped in and clipped to her. I thought I saw a raft in the water go under the bow, and some guy with a horseshoe float, not a consistent plan. They could have easily driven right over her

When hauled right up the person on the halyard way quite a bit higher than the boom, and it sounded like the halyard became stuck. The camera position was right at the gate in the lifelines.
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Old 08-04-2018, 10:27   #133
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Good find
I thought I saw nets on the lifelines forward, but there werent any at the cockpit. She literally went over the side like a bar of soap.

I thought they appeared to respond quickly, but then the video had cuts to it. When we pick it up again the boat was turned right around, a crew had jumped in and clipped to her. I thought I saw a raft in the water go under the bow, and some guy with a horseshoe float, not a consistent plan. They could have easily driven right over her

When hauled right up the person on the halyard way quite a bit higher than the boom, and it sounded like the halyard became stuck. The camera position was right at the gate in the lifelines.
I think lifeline netting is in my future, however much I hate how it interferes with mooring lines and other things.

That video is truly horrifying -- she's gone in like a fraction of a second --just gone. The conditions weren't anything extreme, either. How many times have I sailed in conditions just like that, and alone in the cockpit or even single handed. Just because you are "in clipped on mode"; doesn't mean you're clipped on every second. A sobering lesson.
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 08-04-2018, 10:57   #134
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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I think lifeline netting is in my future, however much I hate how it interferes with mooring lines and other things....
It's funny. As a community we talk safety to death, and then we make the compromises we want. I'm very guilty.

It seems obvious that netting would help, but when you see it, we all assume there are children on board. Would it interfere with mooring? Obviously we could leave clear areas around cleats. I'm generally not very comfortable on the bow of a monohull, so I would probably add it forward. I have extended nets between hulls and amas, akas, and vakas on multihulls. And somehow I would feel silly about adding it between the rails on a mono, because that is how we all look at it. And that's not right.

I say add it if you want to. It probably adds more safety than other things we have seriously discussed. Even some X-lacing would help a good bit.
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Old 08-04-2018, 11:00   #135
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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It's funny. As a community we talk safety to death, and then we make the compromises we want. I'm very guilty.

It seems obvious that netting would help, but when you see it, we all assume there are children on board. Would it interfere with mooring? Obviously we could leave clear areas around cleats. I'm generally not very comfortable on the bow of a monohull, so I would probably add it forward. I have extended nets between hulls and amas, akas, and vakas on multihulls. And somehow I would feel silly about adding it between the rails on a mono, because that is how we all look at it. And that's not right.

I say add it if you want to. It probably adds more safety than other things we have seriously discussed. Even some X-lacing would help a good bit.
Indeed.

After seeing that video, I am definitely adding it, and all around, and what it looks like be darned.

I crewed on a boat with it (because of children on board ) a couple of months ago, and hated dealing with it.

But I think if it's that bad, you can simply unrig it and put it away, when you make landfall and go into coastal mode.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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