Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-04-2018, 18:22   #91
Registered User
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg, Qld.
Posts: 2,192
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I've seen people carrying them, but never much considered a net myself because I'm short of deck storage (like most of us) and such a thing doesn't have any other use.

But now there's a different question --

How do you get someone into the water to deal with a MOB who is already debilitated and unable to clip himself into the lifting tackle?

We saw this process in the Clipper race video above, and it looked pretty hairy -- someone went down to the casualty using the same tackle. I imagine that must be really tough in rough seas with the vessel rolling -- I can hardly imagine -- and in big sea conditions starts to become impossible.

What to do with this probably even likely scenario?

Does anyone think it's possible to use the net for a crewman to get down to a debilitated casualty?

Or how else to do this besides getting hauled down on the tackle?

I can't quite figure this out.

I saw some YouTube videos of live MOB drill on ships where a volunteer casualty jumps into the water, and a "rescue diver" is sent down after him to clip him in for lifting out with a deck crane. The "rescue diver" is in a drysuit with hood and diving fins. It's pretty impressive. The problem is much greater from a ship because that much harder to maneuver close to the casualty. But you see them managing to do it pretty neatly.

I'm writing this from a plane flying above Northern Sweden and can't access YouTube, but you can easily find the videos. They are very well done with all participants wearing Gopro body cams.
They take up no room at all, the ones i would use are attached to the toe-rail on the inside of the lifelines and rolled up until required, about 1.5m wide with a drop of +/-3m or so after going over the top of the lifelines, you don't store them unless not going to sea, when going to sea rig them ready for use but rolled and lashed, you can lash them at deck level or midway up the lifelines or to the top lifelines, i prefer the midway line myself, definitely not in the way at all....

I don't have any (yet) on my current boat but did have 2 lashed P/S on a previous one, made them myself out of 40mm sisal but you can usually order from anywhere that supply's cargo nets, all the ones on our work boats are manufactured out of sisal for a better grip....

Scramble nets are still the best all weather way of getting yourself back on board, yes a rescuer can clip on and go over the side to assist if needed, but unassisted in big seas hard to beat, you can also attach a couple of lines to overboard end and use the net in similar fashion to the Jason's Cradle. I've been drilling with scramble nets for most of my commercial life and can see why most Navy's and numerous other offshore shipping industries still use them, for a sailboat with a relatively low free-board they are made for the job, pulling someone back on board with the net is very easy, the MOB just threads arms and legs through the net and the guys on deck pull them up, a lot quicker than trying to rig a tackle....

I'm not suggesting the net is a replacement for any other systems that are available, but i will say it is one of the best/quickest ones I've used for getting people out of the water, and the more options the better i think...

A not very good video of a commercially purchased scramble net on a small sailboat....

__________________
International Guild of Knot Tyers

Be Brave, Take Risks, Nothing Can Substitute Experience
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 20:49   #92
Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
 
Wotname's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,810
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
They take up no room at all, the ones i would use are attached to the toe-rail on the inside of the lifelines and rolled up until required, about 1.5m wide with a drop of +/-3m or so after going over the top of the lifelines, you don't store them unless not going to sea, when going to sea rig them ready for use but rolled and lashed, you can lash them at deck level or midway up the lifelines or to the top lifelines, i prefer the midway line myself, definitely not in the way at all....

I don't have any (yet) on my current boat but did have 2 lashed P/S on a previous one, made them myself out of 40mm sisal but you can usually order from anywhere that supply's cargo nets, all the ones on our work boats are manufactured out of sisal for a better grip....

Scramble nets are still the best all weather way of getting yourself back on board, yes a rescuer can clip on and go over the side to assist if needed, but unassisted in big seas hard to beat, you can also attach a couple of lines to overboard end and use the net in similar fashion to the Jason's Cradle. I've been drilling with scramble nets for most of my commercial life and can see why most Navy's and numerous other offshore shipping industries still use them, for a sailboat with a relatively low free-board they are made for the job, pulling someone back on board with the net is very easy, the MOB just threads arms and legs through the net and the guys on deck pull them up, a lot quicker than trying to rig a tackle....

I'm not suggesting the net is a replacement for any other systems that are available, but i will say it is one of the best/quickest ones I've used for getting people out of the water, and the more options the better i think...

A not very good video of a commercially purchased scramble net on a small sailboat....

Just thinking aloud ATM.

I am seeing the outboard pole of the net (at about 1.50 in the video) attached to the end of a guyed out boom might be a better way. I haven't thought it through though.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 21:07   #93
Registered User
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg, Qld.
Posts: 2,192
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Just thinking aloud ATM.

I am seeing the outboard pole of the net (at about 1.50 in the video) attached to the end of a guyed out boom might be a better way. I haven't thought it through though.
That be the Jason's Cradle not the scramble net, different animal, the net footage finishes at 1:20....

Both the net and cradle in the footage are commercially made products, you can make your own net(s) to suit your vessel and utilise it as a cradle to, very simple and effective.
__________________
International Guild of Knot Tyers

Be Brave, Take Risks, Nothing Can Substitute Experience
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 21:23   #94
Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
 
Wotname's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,810
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
That be the Jason's Cradle not the scramble net, different animal, the net footage finishes at 1:20....

Both the net and cradle in the footage are commercially made products, you can make your own net(s) to suit your vessel and utilise it as a cradle to, very simple and effective.
I need to improve my visual comprehension

I can still see it attached to the end of the boom...
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 21:34   #95
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: SAnta Cruz 27
Posts: 6,845
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
So now we know:
http://www.mcmurdogroup.com/wp-conte...Study-2014.pdf

As posted in another thread. If this is correct, then the casualty waited 40 minutes to activate the beacon.

Now it starts to make sense.
The spinlock personal AIS is turned on automatically when your vest inflates.
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 21:38   #96
Registered User
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg, Qld.
Posts: 2,192
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I need to improve my visual comprehension

I can still see it attached to the end of the boom...
You lost me Wottie, they did not use the boom at all during the scramble net demo, the only line over the side was the heaving line thrown to the MOB, the boom is midships during the recovery and not in use in the scramble net exercise..

Anyhow i digress, the vid was posted to show the ease of using a scramble net, i did say it wasn't the best video for the purpose
__________________
International Guild of Knot Tyers

Be Brave, Take Risks, Nothing Can Substitute Experience
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 22:04   #97
Registered User
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg, Qld.
Posts: 2,192
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
The spinlock personal AIS is turned on automatically when your vest inflates.
And so do the ones DH referred to, if fitted for auto activation that is, obviously in this case they where fitted for manual activation only...

https://www.mcmurdogroup.com/mcmurdo...smartfind-s20/

Quote:
An automatic deployment option is offered when professionally fitted to compatible lifejackets, allowing the SmartFind S20 to automatically activate when the lifejacket is inflated.
All our Fast Rescue Craft inflatable jackets are now fitted with the S20's and fitted to automatically transmit on inflation, not much good in manual activation if the MOB is unconscious when hitting the water. It wasn't always so and a mixture of none compatible jackets where found through the fleet with S20's fitted but not for auto activation, everything standardised now...
__________________
International Guild of Knot Tyers

Be Brave, Take Risks, Nothing Can Substitute Experience
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2018, 00:19   #98
Registered User
 
Mr B's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 2,912
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Thats so easy in a calm sea and flat water.
Every one standing casually around, Very few if any, actually hanging on,

Try that in a very angry sea, For a start, every one will be hanging on with one hand,
Like grim death, other wise they go over too,

That leaves only one hand to get the MOB back on board,
The boat is pitching up and down like a YoYo,
Nice easy turn around in that video,

In an angry sea, You might be worried about rolling over when you become beam on to the waves, or getting swamped.

Here, a 15 foot wave is very common,
How many ordinary sailboats can drive straight into a 15 foot wave to get back to the MOB,
Especially with a 30 knot plus, wind on the nose.
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2018, 00:38   #99
Registered User
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg, Qld.
Posts: 2,192
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
Thats so easy in a calm sea and flat water.
Every one standing casually around, Very few if any, actually hanging on,

Try that in a very angry sea, For a start, every one will be hanging on with one hand,
Like grim death, other wise they go over too,

That leaves only one hand to get the MOB back on board,
The boat is pitching up and down like a YoYo,
Nice easy turn around in that video,

In an angry sea, You might be worried about rolling over when you become beam on to the waves, or getting swamped.

Here, a 15 foot wave is very common,
How many ordinary sailboats can drive straight into a 15 foot wave to get back to the MOB,
Especially with a 30 knot plus, wind on the nose.
So what do you suggest mate?

We have done it (drills) in angry seas, north of the mouth of the Tamar River for one, you should know where that is? scramble nets have been around forever and used in all sea states.....
__________________
International Guild of Knot Tyers

Be Brave, Take Risks, Nothing Can Substitute Experience
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2018, 01:02   #100
Registered User
 
Mr B's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 2,912
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
So what do you suggest mate?

We have done it (drills) in angry seas, north of the mouth of the Tamar River for one, you should know where that is? scramble nets have been around forever and used in all sea states.....
I am merely pointing out that calm water is not the usual reason for a MOB,
Like Bass Straight is not always a millpond,

Two angry waves between you and the MOB, your not going to see or find the MOB, No matter what gear you have on board, to get the MOB back on board,

Having All this gear is great, Finding the MOB is greater,
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2018, 01:19   #101
Registered User
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg, Qld.
Posts: 2,192
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I am merely pointing out that calm water is not the usual reason for a MOB,
It was never suggested otherwise
Like Bass Straight is not always a millpond,
Well known for it
Two angry waves between you and the MOB, your not going to see or find the MOB, No matter what gear you have on board, to get the MOB back on board,

Having All this gear is great, Finding the MOB is greater,
The conversation about the scramble net is not about finding the MOB but how to get them on board when you do....
Locating the MOB is a different task and has nothing to do with what you use to get them back on board....
__________________
International Guild of Knot Tyers

Be Brave, Take Risks, Nothing Can Substitute Experience
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2018, 03:33   #102
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,296
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
They take up no room at all, the ones i would use are attached to the toe-rail on the inside of the lifelines and rolled up until required, about 1.5m wide with a drop of +/-3m or so after going over the top of the lifelines, you don't store them unless not going to sea, when going to sea rig them ready for use but rolled and lashed, you can lash them at deck level or midway up the lifelines or to the top lifelines, i prefer the midway line myself, definitely not in the way at all....

I don't have any (yet) on my current boat but did have 2 lashed P/S on a previous one, made them myself out of 40mm sisal but you can usually order from anywhere that supply's cargo nets, all the ones on our work boats are manufactured out of sisal for a better grip....

Scramble nets are still the best all weather way of getting yourself back on board, yes a rescuer can clip on and go over the side to assist if needed, but unassisted in big seas hard to beat, you can also attach a couple of lines to overboard end and use the net in similar fashion to the Jason's Cradle. I've been drilling with scramble nets for most of my commercial life and can see why most Navy's and numerous other offshore shipping industries still use them, for a sailboat with a relatively low free-board they are made for the job, pulling someone back on board with the net is very easy, the MOB just threads arms and legs through the net and the guys on deck pull them up, a lot quicker than trying to rig a tackle....

I'm not suggesting the net is a replacement for any other systems that are available, but i will say it is one of the best/quickest ones I've used for getting people out of the water, and the more options the better i think...

A not very good video of a commercially purchased scramble net on a small sailboat....

Thank you very much; an eye opener!

Our freeboard is at least double that of the boat in the video, so that plus rough water might make that a lot more difficult than what we see in the video, but I like what I see.

I also like very much that the same device can be used as a parbuckle.

I like that they just drape it OVER the lifelines.

And lastly those guys have a very good practice regime -- crew take turns jumping in the water and being rescued in various ways, including while pretending to be debilitated.

That's similar to what we have always done, only it is very uncomfortable with cold water and regular foul weather gear. In drysuits it will be much more pleasant.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2018, 03:44   #103
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,296
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I am merely pointing out that calm water is not the usual reason for a MOB,
Like Bass Straight is not always a millpond,

Two angry waves between you and the MOB, your not going to see or find the MOB, No matter what gear you have on board, to get the MOB back on board,

Having All this gear is great, Finding the MOB is greater,
What you write is very true, of course!

But as others have pointed out --

Locating and maneuvering to the victim is one job.

Recovering the victim out of the water is a WHOLE DIFFERENT JOB, something greatly underestimated by a lot of sailors.

You have to practice BOTH of them if you want to be ready.

Job 1 can be practiced in rough water, using fenders etc. -- we do this. I would like to say also that we have lost a few fenders that way Job 1 should be greatly improved with AIS beacons.

Job 2 can't be practiced with fenders -- you need a live person. You could use a dummy for practicing certain aspects of this, but there is no substitute for a live person for practicing getting an non-debilitated person out.

It would be useful to practice it in rough water, but in my opinion it's too risky with a live person. Practicing it in calm water and even at anchor is already extremely useful, however -- because recovering a MOB back on board EVEN when he's not debilitated, in an inflated life jacket and in full soggy foul weather gear and sea boots -- is just a hell of a job. It's just astonishingly difficult. It needs practice, and in my opinion a lot of it.

And this practice is just as useful for the "victim" as it is for the rescuers.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2018, 06:47   #104
Registered User
 
Mr B's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 2,912
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Pulling a very fit and healthy water skier out of the water in very choppy waves by very fit and healthy people on board an 18 to 25 foot ski boat has a lot of challenges,
Ive done it heaps of times, Its not as easy as some think it is,
Being both the skier and the one doing the lifting,
A two foot freeboard is a lot different to 4 to 6 foot on a sailboat,
Then chuck in very big waves and a screaming wind, and a bucking boat,
Maybe I dont know,
But it is very easy to drop the boat on the person in the water if your not very careful,
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2018, 07:17   #105
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,296
Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
Pulling a very fit and healthy water skier out of the water in very choppy waves by very fit and healthy people on board an 18 to 25 foot ski boat has a lot of challenges,
Ive done it heaps of times, Its not as easy as some think it is,
Being both the skier and the one doing the lifting,
A two foot freeboard is a lot different to 4 to 6 foot on a sailboat,
Then chuck in very big waves and a screaming wind, and a bucking boat,
Maybe I dont know,
But it is very easy to drop the boat on the person in the water if your not very careful,
I think you are exactly right about this, actually.

Most people know that a person in the water cannot approach the transom in even slightly choppy water. I know that from experience.

I don't know this from experience, but I suspect that the side of the boat midships, although far safer place than the transom, probably ceases to be a safe place for a person in the water, after a certain sea state.

It's one reason why hauling the person aboard from the preventered-out boom has always been Plan A for me. My boom is 6 meters long and I can get the end of it well clear of the side.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gear, mob

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DAN Boater vs. DAN diver vs other options Boatguy30 Liveaboard's Forum 2 08-05-2017 16:29
Opencpn Dokuwiki Migration -MOB- Help Needed!!! MOB rgleason OpenCPN 87 20-12-2016 10:12
What are the most relevant software's I should install? Izikalvo Navigation 4 06-07-2016 19:27
For Sale: McMurdo Guardian MOB System TWO MOB watches and Receiver petedd Classifieds Archive 1 26-09-2015 16:31
Ship safety, SOLAS and national regulation - are they relevant to yachts roland stockham Seamanship & Boat Handling 13 02-11-2013 03:31

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:13.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.