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Old 06-04-2018, 09:50   #76
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I've seen people carrying them, but never much considered a net myself because I'm short of deck storage (like most of us) and such a thing doesn't have any other use.

But now there's a different question --

How do you get someone into the water to deal with a MOB who is already debilitated and unable to clip himself into the lifting tackle?
...
DH-

We haven't made the leap yet, but thus far have narrowed down our choice for a MOB climbing/lifting device to the SOS Marine Recovery Ladder for situations where our Lifeslings or rigid boarding ladder aren't practical. [e.g., high wind and waves, inflated PFD on floater, impossible/dangerous to perform circle maneuvers around floater with vessel or dinghy, etc.]

It is compact and cheap enough, and could be used to either lift a disabled person from the water, or possibly lower a rescuer to assist... [Assuming the MOB cannot climb the ladder on this device...]

We also keep a couple of boat hooks with attachments for a pull-off snap clip for grabbing mooring rings/loops. [Like this as an example.]

The snaps are cowhitched to one end of a dedicated 'rescue pendant' [e.g., 6M bright colored floating line with eyes at both ends.] These we do practice with, but having a rigid pole around a debilated floater in inclement conditions may end up doing more harm than good, and grabbing the small ring is not easy in calm practice conditions...

Therefore we have considered making a short floating pendant/messenger line for permanent installation on each inflatable PFD. The goal being to have a 2nd lift point floating a short distance from the MOB. One end would attach [e.g., cowhitch] to the lifting point on the PFD. Lay a couple of meters of line in with the bladder in deflated mode. The other end of this pendant/messenger line would have a floating ring or loop with a small float for rescuers to grab from the boat. The larger separate loop may also allow a MOB who has lost manual dexterity [i.e., after ~10 mins in the cold water...] to still fumble a monkey's fist through the larger floating ring/loop. But this is just a concept at this stage.

None of these approaches are ideal, and all are undoubtedly very difficult if not impossible to execute in anger.

In case any of this is useful.

Cheers! Bill
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:50   #77
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
helicopter rescue slings use 1 part to a clip, or two part where no clip exists and the subject is unable to spread arms out. A two part sling goes around the back and below the arms, the other side goes under the knees.

the rescue diver is attached to the same sling

In this way you need the crank to haul 2 people aboard on the same lift, despite this I think it might be the safest option. Once theyre on the hook the dangers are minimised

This suggests having a sling ready to be rigged at any time, the process being quick to facilitate
You obviously know what you are talking about.

Can you share with some photos or videos, maybe?

For a person in a harness, we don't need any extra gear -- there is a snap shackle at the end of my lifting tackle, and you just snap it on. For a person without a harness, my plan was always to use the life sling. But I'm not actually sure that this is the optimum device for this purpose -- maybe you can show us what the pros use from helicopters.


I guess that once you are "on the hook" -- the ship may roll, you may be dunked, but you will largely be held above water.

I have practiced lifting people out of the water from my boom, and it's important to raise the boom as high as possible so that you can then bring the people on board. So that's now part of procedure. The lifting itself is not a big deal with 3:1 tackle and a 10mm dyneema rope.

I think my tackle is strong enough for two people, but I need to try it.

I am sure as hades now going to practice it.

That's a key unknown skill -- getting a debilitated person out of the water. Which will need a lot of effort to develop.
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:52   #78
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
Regarding the suggestion of practicing rescue techniques with live people in cold water. I would never ask my husband Ken or anyone else to jump in the water wearing a drysuit or no drysuit and then hope to bring them back aboard safely.

Completely irresponsible and dangerous, but that’s just my opinion of course. We’ll continue the safe practice of rescuing life rings and other objects and practice on live people while safely docked in a marina or anchored.

Ken
What a bit like a diver jumping in the water I will remind you that Jacquecs Cousteau described scuba as a sport for active grandmothers.
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:58   #79
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrwakefield View Post
DH-

We haven't made the leap yet, but thus far have narrowed down our choice for a MOB climbing/lifting device to the SOS Marine Recovery Ladder for situations where our Lifeslings or rigid boarding ladder aren't practical. [e.g., high wind and waves, inflated PFD on floater, impossible/dangerous to perform circle maneuvers around floater with vessel or dinghy, etc.]

It is compact and cheap enough, and could be used to either lift a disabled person from the water, or possibly lower a rescuer to assist... [Assuming the MOB cannot climb the ladder on this device...]

We also keep a couple of boat hooks with attachments for a pull-off snap clip for grabbing mooring rings/loops. [Like this as an example.]

The snaps are cowhitched to one end of a dedicated 'rescue pendant' [e.g., 6M bright colored floating line with eyes at both ends.] These we do practice with, but having a rigid pole around a debilated floater in inclement conditions may end up doing more harm than good, and grabbing the small ring is not easy in calm practice conditions...

Therefore we have considered making a short floating pendant/messenger line for permanent installation on each inflatable PFD. The goal being to have a 2nd lift point floating a short distance from the MOB. One end would attach [e.g., cowhitch] to the lifting point on the PFD. Lay a couple of meters of line in with the bladder in deflated mode. The other end of this pendant/messenger line would have a floating ring or loop with a small float for rescuers to grab from the boat. The larger separate loop may also allow a MOB who has lost manual dexterity [i.e., after ~10 mins in the cold water...] to still fumble a monkey's fist through the larger floating ring/loop. But this is just a concept at this stage.

None of these approaches are ideal, and all are undoubtedly very difficult if not impossible to execute in anger.

In case any of this is useful.

Cheers! Bill
Thanks very much for this!

That device is most interesting -- a combination ladder and parbuckle sail. Probably less bulky to store than a scramble net. Maybe really worthwhile.

We are talking about a really hard task -- recovering a MOB in cold water and ocean conditions, possibly strong weather or even big sea conditions. You and I and everyone who has any taste of such conditions knows very well that at a certain point, the MOB is dead no matter how well prepared the ship and crew are. What we are talking about here is just improving the odds -- moving the limit of survivable conditions up at least a little.

I'm really interested now in the "rescue diver" function and the best way to deploy him. You correctly point out the issue of the quick loss of hand function in cold water. This will kill a MOB unless we are prepared to get someone into the water next to him, to get him clipped in or whatever needs to be done to get him out. It's unknown territory for me.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 06-04-2018, 10:25   #80
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

If I could I'd wait for the accident report on Scallywag MOB before I made a final decision on MOB gear. I sounded like the best that the VOR could provide was not up to the task on a professionally crewed boat.
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Old 06-04-2018, 11:10   #81
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

I'm really interested now in the "rescue diver" function and the best way to deploy him. You correctly point out the issue of the quick loss of hand function in cold water. This will kill a MOB unless we are prepared to get someone into the water next to him, to get him clipped in or whatever needs to be done to get him out. It's unknown territory for me.
he has to be attached to the recovery winch from the get go, or chances are good you will be rescuing him too The purchase power needs to be enough to recover two crew

Also speed is the key, the faster you can get to the MOB the less impared crew is.

I think for the mostpart, conditions are less than at their worst, its these easier ones that should be targetted
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Old 06-04-2018, 11:30   #82
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
he has to be attached to the recovery winch from the get go, or chances are good you will be rescuing him too The purchase power needs to be enough to recover two crew

Also speed is the key, the faster you can get to the MOB the less impared crew is.

I think for the mostpart, conditions are less than at their worst, its these easier ones that should be targetted
We're going to have to practice this.

I think the lifting tackle should be OK - 3:1 and a good fair lead to an electric primary winch. But you never know for sure until you try it.
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 06-04-2018, 12:06   #83
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post



Shocking that it took 90 MINUTES to get him back on board, despite the AIS beacon. Wow!! However, I'm having trouble squaring words of the captain talking about how they were desperately looking for a "needle in a haystack", with other reports that Taylor activated the AIS beacon which transmitted his exact coordinates to the boat. What really happened?






.
So now we know:
http://www.mcmurdogroup.com/wp-conte...Study-2014.pdf

As posted in another thread. If this is correct, then the casualty waited 40 minutes to activate the beacon.

Now it starts to make sense.
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I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 06-04-2018, 13:03   #84
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You obviously know what you are talking about.

Can you share with some photos or videos, maybe?

For a person in a harness, we don't need any extra gear -- there is a snap shackle at the end of my lifting tackle, and you just snap it on. For a person without a harness, my plan was always to use the life sling. But I'm not actually sure that this is the optimum device for this purpose -- maybe you can show us what the pros use from helicopters.


I guess that once you are "on the hook" -- the ship may roll, you may be dunked, but you will largely be held above water.

I have practiced lifting people out of the water from my boom, and it's important to raise the boom as high as possible so that you can then bring the people on board. So that's now part of procedure. The lifting itself is not a big deal with 3:1 tackle and a 10mm dyneema rope.

I think my tackle is strong enough for two people, but I need to try it.

I am sure as hades now going to practice it.

That's a key unknown skill -- getting a debilitated person out of the water. Which will need a lot of effort to develop.
I suggest a wire gate climbing carabiner, not a snap shackle. Far easier to quickly clip with one hand. It is what they are designed for.

In principle, a rescue diver is dressed in a drysuit or wet suit, is wearing a hood and dive gloves, is a fit individual, and will not be affected by the cold. He will not be wearing a debilitating inflatable PFD and he will be wearing a full body harness or chest harness plus seat harness. He will be able to help himself aboard or he shouldn't try to be a rescue swimmer.
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Old 06-04-2018, 13:57   #85
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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I suggest a wire gate climbing carabiner, not a snap shackle. Far easier to quickly clip with one hand. It is what they are designed for.

In principle, a rescue diver is dressed in a drysuit or wet suit, is wearing a hood and dive gloves, is a fit individual, and will not be affected by the cold. He will not be wearing a debilitating inflatable PFD and he will be wearing a full body harness or chest harness plus seat harness. He will be able to help himself aboard or he shouldn't try to be a rescue swimmer.
Hot tip; I'm ordering one now. Thanks.

So - how do you think would be the best way to get a debilitated MOB back on board?

There will be some very fit people on board this trip, but in general - do you have any choice but to put someone into the water?

A life raft is another way to get to the casualty - I guess - and I've heard of this being done successfully, but it's awkward, Tim consuming, and also with its own risks.

What do you think?
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I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 06-04-2018, 14:00   #86
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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What a bit like a diver jumping in the water I will remind you that Jacquecs Cousteau described scuba as a sport for active grandmothers.
Then go ahead and be the first MOB live practice dummy, but this grandmother knows better than to jump in while out in choppy seas, and so do most CF members.

Pam
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Old 06-04-2018, 14:09   #87
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
Then go ahead and be the first MOB live practice dummy, but this grandmother knows better than to jump in while out in choppy seas, and so do most CF members.

Pam
Who said anything about choppy seas?

Of course not. We do these drills - EVERY YEAR - at anchor or in good weather with the dinghy launched and standing nearby.

If you haven't hauled a real person over the side - and not onto the swim platform - and been hauled over yourself, you're not ready for a real incident in a real seaway where you can't approach the transom without getting your brains bashed out.

Maneuvering to the casualty is at most only half the battle. And the rougher the weather, the greater the challenge. There is no silver bullet for a MOB in a real seaway.
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 06-04-2018, 15:12   #88
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Hot tip; I'm ordering one now. Thanks.

So - how do you think would be the best way to get a debilitated MOB back on board?

There will be some very fit people on board this trip, but in general - do you have any choice but to put someone into the water?

A life raft is another way to get to the casualty - I guess - and I've heard of this being done successfully, but it's awkward, Tim consuming, and also with its own risks.

What do you think?
Good question.

If they still have a tether, I would clip an extension and cut the jackline if needed (unclip if possible). Then I can let them float out of the bow wave and breath (I wish all tethers had a halyard loop at the jackline end). I have tested this method, and it is a good way to keep someone from downing in the bow wave. It's fast and does not require anyone to lean over. The extension can be a halyard or just a 30-foot length of line, so long as it gets them out of the bow wave and allows you to move them to a better lifting site (side of cockpit can be better).

If they are in the water it's tough. If they are able, throw something that floats with a carbabiner for them to clip. If they are disabled, I always assumed swimming would be involved. Give me a nice long rope so I can freely swim to the person, and a lanyard to clip them in when I get them. I would dress like a rescue swimmer, including fullbody harness (see note below). The idea of being lowered to them does not make sense to me. It looks like a good way to get hurt. So long as you have a 50' rope on me, I'm not too worried about being recovered. I would want you to have another line ready, because I think hoisting 2 at once is asking for trouble.

Note: I've been working on a load-rated leg loop design that would convert any chest harness into a harness suitable for hoisting and serious falls. It adds no weight (not a seat harness) and does not affect movement. I've worn it all day and taken falls up to 6 feet. Should be in PS soon. Easy DIY project.
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Old 06-04-2018, 16:39   #89
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Who said anything about choppy seas?

Of course not. We do these drills - EVERY YEAR - at anchor or in good weather with the dinghy launched and standing nearby.

If you haven't hauled a real person over the side - and not onto the swim platform - and been hauled over yourself, you're not ready for a real incident in a real seaway where you can't approach the transom without getting your brains bashed out.

Maneuvering to the casualty is at most only half the battle. And the rougher the weather, the greater the challenge. There is no silver bullet for a MOB in a real seaway.
My husband is the one who’s actually rescued someone out in a choppy seaway and we practice on windy days outside the marina and anchorage using floating devices, you’re the ones still trying to figure it out. So now I’ll leave you to do your figuring. You seem very resistive to successful methods.

Good luck

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Old 06-04-2018, 17:03   #90
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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. . . . If they are disabled, I always assumed swimming would be involved. Give me a nice long rope so I can freely swim to the person, and a lanyard to clip them in when I get them. I would dress like a rescue swimmer, including fullbody harness (see note below). The idea of being lowered to them does not make sense to me. It looks like a good way to get hurt. So long as you have a 50' rope on me, I'm not too worried about being recovered. I would want you to have another line ready, because I think hoisting 2 at once is asking for trouble.

.
That makes a lot of sense. Not that it's really encouraging. I guess a debilitated MOB on a double-handed boat is basically dead. I've heard of wives towing their dead husbands back into port after being unable to get them back on board.

I think we're going to have to get in the water and experiment with this.




Quote:
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Note: I've been working on a load-rated leg loop design that would convert any chest harness into a harness suitable for hoisting and serious falls. It adds no weight (not a seat harness) and does not affect movement. I've worn it all day and taken falls up to 6 feet. Should be in PS soon. Easy DIY project
That sounds like a great idea.

My life jackets have wide and robust (and padded) crotch straps and work reasonably well. I have been lifted out of the water in mine and life different friends and crew from time to time for practice. But it's not nearly as good as the Petzl climbing harness I go aloft in. I think the leg straps change the center of gravity of the body as it is being lifted and it just feels better -- and safer. Nor do I think I would want to take a fall with the crotch strap! Ouch!
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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