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Old 04-04-2018, 13:40   #61
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The point of the throwing line is that it can be thrown if you can't maneuver right up next to the casualty -- like in really rough conditions where you would bash the person to death in the trough. That's the first use case.

The second use case is in more benign conditions, where trailing it behind and circling can work, it is better suited to lifting someone in a harness. The life sling just gets in the way if the person already has a harness on. You can trail a floating line and circle, just like you can with a life sling.

Life sling is for people without a harness, and is a Godsend for such cases -- that is what is designed for, and that's why we always have a life sling on all our boats.

Both throwing line and life sling are essential tools in a MOB arsenal.
The people involved in the failed recue attempt below, might have a different view on the effectiveness of your monkey fist rope idea. Maybe if the water is considerably warmer than 78 degrees, your idea might work. But in colder water I don’t think so. The Lifesling towed behind a circling boat is much more effective when done properly, because the technique brings the life ring and floating line up to the MOB who basically is in the process of stuggling and fighting for their life and most likely would not be aware of or able to catch objects being thrown at them.

Pam

Case 9. Case 9 occurred during the SORC in 1979. It illustrates many of the problems encountered. A crewmember on a 46-foot sloop was relieving himself at the stern while his boat was beating in 30 knots of wind. He wore no harness but did have a float coat. He was 35 years old, a professional seaman, reported to be a strong swimmer and not prone to seasickness, although he had said that he was not feeling well. The water temperature was 78 degrees. Within two minutes the boat was brought head to wind and maneuvered under main alone to within about 20 feet from the victim. The crewmember had removed his float coat and was unable to grab a line thrown within reach. His only words were "Better Hurry".
The boat took another pass within two minutes, this time under engine and main. Several lines were thrown across him, but he made no effort to grab them. The boat made a third pass, again within two minutes, a crew member went over the side, reached the victim, but was unable to bring him to the boat before he disappeared. At some point, a line got around the propeller and there was difficulty in rehoisting the main. The second crewman was recovered, but the first was never seen again. In summary, the victim was able bodied and a strong swimmer in water too warm to produce sudden hypothermia. Nevertheless, he succumbed within six minutes.
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Old 04-04-2018, 14:00   #62
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

The most enduring messages I get from this discussion is an underuse of PFDs. Personally Im thinking I should find more reasons to wear a PFD and fewer reasons to take it off.

Certainly we would all have felt the effect of cold on muscles and overall strength. At the moment you can no longer support yourself in the water, you are effectively dead, and a contributor to putting more crew at risk.

I felt too that water temperature itself seemed an unreliable barometer of an individuals susceptibility to hypothermia. My meaning being, and this somewhat surprised me, that even in relatively warm water people can still be unexpectedly consumed.
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Old 04-04-2018, 14:09   #63
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

I was out sailing all day yesterday in a dry suit, 10C air and water with mist. More agile than my weather gear">foul weather gear, not at all cold or sweaty. Harness and tether most of the time.

The specific reasons for my choice were that I was singlehanding and that I spent part of the time in a kayak. But it was also quite comfortable in the rain.

However, the highlight was that a USCG cruiser came over and gave me a spot check. First time in ~ 10 years. I had everything they asked for. In parting, they complimented me on safe gear and said have a nice day. They had float coats but no dry suits (had several on-board).

(I was not sailing the PDQ in my avitar but rather a more exposed F-24.)

Just sayin'.
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Old 04-04-2018, 15:25   #64
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

You asked about the Johnbuoy. It is a nice idea if you don’t have an AIS beacon and your life jacket has no lifting point as the Johnbuoy has a mast so can be more easily seen and a lifting point high up that the boat crew can reach. Good if the casualty is too weak to help. With an AIS beacon and a life jacket with a lift point built in then most of the advantages are gone. There is another advantage, which is the thing works like a mini dinghy and keeps the casualty drier.

I had one, but it got discharged by accident and I lost it. I later heard from someone who used his in anger. It was pretty windy and the wind blew it away before the casualty got to it, even though it has a drogue. A problem with all life rings I suppose. I haven’t replaced mine, but I have a standard one. It’s important to have the drogue, light and retro reflective tape I think. You can buy the tape in strips to fix to the front and rear of hoods too if you don’t have it there already.
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Old 05-04-2018, 13:32   #65
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
The people involved in the failed recue attempt below, might have a different view on the effectiveness of your monkey fist rope idea. Maybe if the water is considerably warmer than 78 degrees, your idea might work. But in colder water I donít think so. The Lifesling towed behind a circling boat is much more effective when done properly, because the technique brings the life ring and floating line up to the MOB who basically is in the process of stuggling and fighting for their life and most likely would not be aware of or able to catch objects being thrown at them.

Pam

Case 9. Case 9 occurred during the SORC in 1979. It illustrates many of the problems encountered. A crewmember on a 46-foot sloop was relieving himself at the stern while his boat was beating in 30 knots of wind. He wore no harness but did have a float coat. He was 35 years old, a professional seaman, reported to be a strong swimmer and not prone to seasickness, although he had said that he was not feeling well. The water temperature was 78 degrees. Within two minutes the boat was brought head to wind and maneuvered under main alone to within about 20 feet from the victim. The crewmember had removed his float coat and was unable to grab a line thrown within reach. His only words were "Better Hurry".
The boat took another pass within two minutes, this time under engine and main. Several lines were thrown across him, but he made no effort to grab them. The boat made a third pass, again within two minutes, a crew member went over the side, reached the victim, but was unable to bring him to the boat before he disappeared. At some point, a line got around the propeller and there was difficulty in rehoisting the main. The second crewman was recovered, but the first was never seen again. In summary, the victim was able bodied and a strong swimmer in water too warm to produce sudden hypothermia. Nevertheless, he succumbed within six minutes.
What that case has to do with the discussion, I have no idea. Obviously when a person is paralyzed with hypothermia and makes no effort to grab something thrown -- or trailed -- to him, it doesn't matter whether it's a throw line or a life sling.

If you want to believe there's a silver bullet for MOB which makes all other techniques or devices unnecessary -- fine, your boat, your rules. I wouldn't want to fall off it

My opinion is that not only is there no silver bullet, but from a certain sea state recovering a MOB out of cold, rough water before they succumb, even in a drysuit, becomes more or less impossible, especially if the boat is short handed. Figuring out the optimum techniques -- the optimum ARRAY of different techniques and devices, each suited to its own set of conditions or circumstances -- only improves the odds. Does not necessarily make them good.

I would sure like to know why it took 90 minutes to find the guy in the first video, if he had an AIS beacon on him as was said in the McMurdo video about the incident.
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Old 05-04-2018, 13:50   #66
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
You asked about the Johnbuoy. It is a nice idea if you donít have an AIS beacon and your life jacket has no lifting point as the Johnbuoy has a mast so can be more easily seen and a lifting point high up that the boat crew can reach. Good if the casualty is too weak to help. With an AIS beacon and a life jacket with a lift point built in then most of the advantages are gone. There is another advantage, which is the thing works like a mini dinghy and keeps the casualty drier.

I had one, but it got discharged by accident and I lost it. I later heard from someone who used his in anger. It was pretty windy and the wind blew it away before the casualty got to it, even though it has a drogue. A problem with all life rings I suppose. I havenít replaced mine, but I have a standard one. Itís important to have the drogue, light and retro reflective tape I think. You can buy the tape in strips to fix to the front and rear of hoods too if you donít have it there already.
Yes, well, I think the many great posts in this thread have answered my question --

For me now, after digesting all of this, the answer is YES, you need a dan buoy and you need the life rings, even if they are not suited to all conditions or circumstances, and now I better understand why.

I'm going to have some serious practice with people actually in the water, when I get my crew together, and experiment with different techniques.

As far as equipment is concerned, I think what I am thinking now is:

1. PFD's with good harnesses: ESSENTIAL, and bloody WEAR THEM. I am guilty of just never wearing them even in fairly lively weather. One of the videos above of the woman being knocked out of the COCKPIT by a boarding sea and overboard was REALLY sobering. The harnesses should be comfortable for being lifted with -- I think I will have everyone trying getting hauled up, to feel what it is like.

2. AIS beacons -- ESSENTIAL.

3. Jacklines and tethers -- need to work on the routing and really make sure this is optimum.

4. Rescue knife -- essential so that you can cut the tether if you are getting dragged behind and drowned.

5. Throw line -- essential for different cases where you need to get a line on someone you can't or don't want to get right up next to.

6. Life sling -- essential for rescuing someone who is unfortunate enough to fall overboard without a harness.

7. Lifting tackle at the ready.

8. Dan buoy and life rings -- for immediate throwing to improve visibility of the casualty and give the casualty something, possibly, to hold on to.

9. Training. Practice, practice, practice.

Did I miss anything?

I have considered and rejected parbuckle sails, inflatable jon buoys (complicated expensive and don't really do that much), and a number of other things.

I'm somewhat concerned about the vertical lifting issue and don't know how to evaluate the risk.

Lifted out by a harness won't be so bad but lifting someone out by the shoulders would seem to maximize the risk of this, and I wonder if this is not something to think about. Possibly a bosun's chair could be used in benign conditions, for someone not wearing a harness.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 05-04-2018, 14:39   #67
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

With the lifebouys rig them with lights, a big help at night both for the MOB and boat....

Plenty of choice....

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=l...w=1366&bih=637
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Old 05-04-2018, 15:06   #68
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm somewhat concerned about the vertical lifting issue and don't know how to evaluate the risk.

Lifted out by a harness won't be so bad but lifting someone out by the shoulders would seem to maximize the risk of this, and I wonder if this is not something to think about. Possibly a bosun's chair could be used in benign conditions, for someone not wearing a harness.
Lifting vertical is an issue for lifeboat crews who could arrive on site hours after the casualty goes overboard. You will hopefully be alongside in minutes. The difference is going to be a huge grey area depending on clothing, sea temperature, sea conditions and personal fitness. You may not be able to calculate all the possibilities, but you will be lowering the risk substantially by insisting on drysuits, lifejackets and harnesses.

Do you have a ladder for boarding midships? be much quicker to get the casualty out if they are conscious and only been overboard for a short while.
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Old 05-04-2018, 15:12   #69
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Lifting vertical is an issue for lifeboat crews who could arrive on site hours after the casualty goes overboard. You will hopefully be alongside in minutes. The difference is going to be a huge grey area depending on clothing, sea temperature, sea conditions and personal fitness. You may not be able to calculate all the possibilities, but you will be lowering the risk substantially by insisting on drysuits, lifejackets and harnesses.

Do you have a ladder for boarding midships? be much quicker to get the casualty out if they are conscious and only been overboard for a short while.
Great question about the ladder.

I do have one. It seems like it would be dangerous in rough weather, but I wonder. I've seen boats with boarding nets - might be better.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 05-04-2018, 15:34   #70
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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What that case has to do with the discussion, I have no idea. Obviously when a person is paralyzed with hypothermia and makes no effort to grab something thrown -- or trailed -- to him, it doesn't matter whether it's a throw line or a life sling.

If you want to believe there's a silver bullet for MOB which makes all other techniques or devices unnecessary -- fine, your boat, your rules. I wouldn't want to fall off it

My opinion is that not only is there no silver bullet, but from a certain sea state recovering a MOB out of cold, rough water before they succumb, even in a drysuit, becomes more or less impossible, especially if the boat is short handed. Figuring out the optimum techniques -- the optimum ARRAY of different techniques and devices, each suited to its own set of conditions or circumstances -- only improves the odds. Does not necessarily make them good.

I would sure like to know why it took 90 minutes to find the guy in the first video, if he had an AIS beacon on him as was said in the McMurdo video about the incident.
The reason the example is relevant to your discussion, is that it shows how newer and better rescue techniques have been developed to replace the monkeys fist and line method. Is this not what you’re asking in your initial post? Are the old methods still relevant?

If you want to explore answers, I strongly suggest you turn your attention with an open mind to Morganscloud and to people who’ve sucessfully saved someone, rather than speculation. The choice is yours.

Pam
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Old 05-04-2018, 15:40   #71
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Great question about the ladder.

I do have one. It seems like it would be dangerous in rough weather, but I wonder. I've seen boats with boarding nets - might be better.
I have climbed up some pretty awful ladders over the years, normally with fins and full diving kit on. A ladder for me please, regardless of the conditions.

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Old 05-04-2018, 16:14   #72
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Regarding the suggestion of practicing rescue techniques with live people in cold water. I would never ask my husband Ken or anyone else to jump in the water wearing a drysuit or no drysuit and then hope to bring them back aboard safely.

Completely irresponsible and dangerous, but thatís just my opinion of course. Weíll continue the safe practice of rescuing life rings and other objects and practice on live people while safely docked in a marina or anchored.

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Old 05-04-2018, 16:17   #73
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Scramble nets are far easier to use than a fixed ladder and a lot safer in heavy weather, the MOB is not going to get drilled by a heaving scramble net as it floats unlike a fixed ladder, there are more hand and foot holds and it's easier to pull the net/mob on deck all at once if required, Very easy to make to suit your own vessel or buy if needed.

There are very good reason why lifeboats and AHSV's etc are still required to have scramble nets, a Jasonís Cradle is a good option to.
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Old 06-04-2018, 07:55   #74
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Scramble nets are far easier to use than a fixed ladder and a lot safer in heavy weather, the MOB is not going to get drilled by a heaving scramble net as it floats unlike a fixed ladder, there are more hand and foot holds and it's easier to pull the net/mob on deck all at once if required, Very easy to make to suit your own vessel or buy if needed.

There are very good reason why lifeboats and AHSV's etc are still required to have scramble nets, a Jasonís Cradle is a good option to.
I've seen people carrying them, but never much considered a net myself because I'm short of deck storage (like most of us) and such a thing doesn't have any other use.

But now there's a different question --

How do you get someone into the water to deal with a MOB who is already debilitated and unable to clip himself into the lifting tackle?

We saw this process in the Clipper race video above, and it looked pretty hairy -- someone went down to the casualty using the same tackle. I imagine that must be really tough in rough seas with the vessel rolling -- I can hardly imagine -- and in big sea conditions starts to become impossible.

What to do with this probably even likely scenario?

Does anyone think it's possible to use the net for a crewman to get down to a debilitated casualty?

Or how else to do this besides getting hauled down on the tackle?

I can't quite figure this out.

I saw some YouTube videos of live MOB drill on ships where a volunteer casualty jumps into the water, and a "rescue diver" is sent down after him to clip him in for lifting out with a deck crane. The "rescue diver" is in a drysuit with hood and diving fins. It's pretty impressive. The problem is much greater from a ship because that much harder to maneuver close to the casualty. But you see them managing to do it pretty neatly.

I'm writing this from a plane flying above Northern Sweden and can't access YouTube, but you can easily find the videos. They are very well done with all participants wearing Gopro body cams.
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I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:32   #75
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Does anyone think it's possible to use the net for a crewman to get down to a debilitated casualty?

Or how else to do this besides getting hauled down on the tackle?
helicopter rescue slings use 1 part to a clip, or two part where no clip exists and the subject is unable to spread arms out. A two part sling goes around the back and below the arms, the other side goes under the knees.

the rescue diver is attached to the same sling

In this way you need the crank to haul 2 people aboard on the same lift, despite this I think it might be the safest option. Once theyre on the hook the dangers are minimised

This suggests having a sling ready to be rigged at any time, the process being quick to facilitate
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