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Old 04-04-2018, 02:18   #46
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
"Lifesling case history."
interesting if harrowing reading. I havent read them all but taking particular note of #24 and #30.

Interesting too how difficult recovering the MOB from the water is and how often it features. I had intended to use the mizzen boom with a gun tackle kept in the sail locker which can be rigged at pace. But now Im thinking more than 3:1 might be required especially if someone has to jump into the sea to assist.

I have to use the mizzen boom because my main has no topping lift that allows the boom alone to swing out.
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:22   #47
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
And life rings -- do they actually do anything useful in this day and age?
Based on what I have seen in the cruising vlogs, people tend to walk on the deck with no PFD, no tethers etc. It seems that life rings are very much needed to have at least something to throw in the water (to say that you at least tried to save them) if they go overboard. :-)
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:58   #48
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
Interesting too how difficult recovering the MOB from the water is and how often it features. I had intended to use the mizzen boom with a gun tackle kept in the sail locker which can be rigged at pace. But now Im thinking more than 3:1 might be required especially if someone has to jump into the sea to assist.

I have to use the mizzen boom because my main has no topping lift that allows the boom alone to swing out.
Our main sheet is attached to the main sheet track and to the boom with carabiners which enable it to be quickly changed to use the 4:1 to lift a casualty. However, larger yachts probably couldn't use carabiners as the SWL is only 1000kgs.

There is also the problem of how to clip the casualty to the tackle. If they are conscious then they could walk up the stern ladder and sugar scoop transom. If they are incapacitated then someone has to go into the water and risks becoming a second casualty, also a problem if short handed.

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Old 04-04-2018, 04:05   #49
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Medical - It is not to well known but a casualty that is begging to suffer from hypothermia can have a significant risk of a heart attack if lifted vertically. The compression on your legs pools cold blood down there. When you lift them blood tends to rush from the brain and chest and then quickly be replaced by cold blood from the legs triggering cardiac shock. Applies particularly to anyone over 50. Rolling into a dinghy or lifting horizontally helps. Also remember secondary drowning. If you breath in sea spray it irritates the lungs severely and you get fluid on the lungs (and possibly pnumonia). If you are days from help there is not much you can do beyond antibiotics. Any signs of a cough or sort of breath developing a few hours after recovery should be treated as a emergency.
It's a valid point but I think it is wider known than you may think. Also there must be a time and temperature element in this or every diver who climes up a ladder to get out or scrambles into a rib would suffer this problem. Certainly after 4000 dives some lasting over 2 hours underwater this hasn't been a problem on the dives I have completed or supervised.

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Old 04-04-2018, 04:28   #50
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

That's probably your best bet, but why risk it at all? If you're not racing, just heave to!
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:55   #51
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Our main sheet is attached to the main sheet track and to the boom with carabiners which enable it to be quickly changed to use the 4:1 to lift a casualty. However, larger yachts probably couldn't use carabiners as the SWL is only 1000kgs.

There is also the problem of how to clip the casualty to the tackle. If they are conscious then they could walk up the stern ladder and sugar scoop transom. If they are incapacitated then someone has to go into the water and risks becoming a second casualty, also a problem if short handed.

Pete
I use the same tackle I use to lift the outboard, which is always kept in the cockpit table. Triple purchase using low friction rings. I also have permanently rigged preventers, so will be pretty quick to make ready.

Yes, if the casualty is not capable of snapping himself in, someone has to go into the water, which is what we saw in the Clipper video. Something we will practice this summer. In very cold water, this state will come fast.

Concerning sugar scoop - obviously only in calm weather! The counter is a death trap with any sea running.
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:00   #52
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
It's a valid point but I think it is wider known than you may think. Also there must be a time and temperature element in this or every diver who climes up a ladder to get out or scrambles into a rib would suffer this problem. Certainly after 4000 dives some lasting over 2 hours underwater this hasn't been a problem on the dives I have completed or supervised.

Pete
As I understand it, there are fitness, age, body temperature and actively aspects to consider. Presumably divers are fit, not too old, keep body temperature high(ish) and are active when diving.

A MOB in cold water maybe not so much. If you can prevent cold blood pooling in the legs, then there is no issue.

Liferaft training courses I have attended emphasise never to lift someone into a raft, rather roll them into it.
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:07   #53
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
I would challenge that. If the clip at the end of the rope is a non-locking climbing carabiner (I can't imagine it would logically be anything else), clipping a metal ring with mittens is nothing. On the other hand, rolling into a life sling while hypothermic and encumbered by an inflated PFD has proven impossible for many.

I leave a biner on the Lifesling, just in case that is easier for the swimmer. It also increases security.
I agree!

I have actually been lifted out with a lifesling, and it requires strength. Makes no sense whatsoever to use it if the casualty is in a harness.

For that case I have a floating throw rope with monkeys fist, which is more versatile than the lifesling, since you can throw it as well as trail it behind.

By the way, concerning trailing lines behind, if you ever try this in rough weather you'll see that in the chaos of all the wave action, it is very easy to get a floating rope in your prop, which would really really suck - to be suddenly without power in rough weather AND in the middle of a MOB crisis. I tried this once - never again.
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:09   #54
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I seriously missing some thing here, Please inform me,

You can sail around a MOB in a sailing vessel, Trailing a rope,
How soon does the rope wrap around the prop and you have no propulsion at all,
Are you that good a sailor you can do it on sails only,

Usually, a MOB would be in a min of 4 metre waves, Winds in excess of 30 knots,
And very rough seas, This is reality,
Water over the deck usually washes them overboard,
A lurching boat throws them overboard,
A boom knocks them overboard,

Who falls over in calm water other than a drunk,

Do Mono sail boats have big motors and get over 10 knots,

The VRS stated the wind was in excess of 35 knots, to the south,
5 metre waves to the south,
I was going north at 7 knots on my motor, Straight into it, Almost flat out, 8 knots is Maximum,
On the GPS, I was going south, backwards at one and a half knots,

If I had a MOB in front of me, I could never get to them as the wind and waves were taking me south, Away from them,
No, Im not being a S/A, I wish to learn,
Yes, I can run circles around a MOB in a power boat, But we are talking sailing boats here,

Thanks, Brian,
Everybody should try close maneuvering in rough weather. It is surprisingly difficult, and at a certain point, impossible.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:12   #55
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
The floating life sling trails at the end of a floating rope (attached near the stern) so yes, you can motor around in a circle (seas permitting) without the rope or life sling becoming fouled in the prop.
The operative phrase being "seas permitting".

But also, in rough wave action, floating ropes often get mixed up in the turmoil and get carried under. Been there, done that, and it ain't pretty.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:45   #56
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The operative phrase being "seas permitting".

But also, in rough wave action, floating ropes often get mixed up in the turmoil and get carried under. Been there, done that, and it ain't pretty.
Where is the "I concur" smilie when you need it?
Maybe this will do
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:22   #57
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I seriously missing some thing here, Please inform me,

You can sail around a MOB in a sailing vessel, Trailing a rope,
How soon does the rope wrap around the prop and you have no propulsion at all,
Are you that good a sailor you can do it on sails only,

Usually, a MOB would be in a min of 4 metre waves, Winds in excess of 30 knots,
And very rough seas, This is reality,
Water over the deck usually washes them overboard,
A lurching boat throws them overboard,
A boom knocks them overboard,

Who falls over in calm water other than a drunk,

Do Mono sail boats have big motors and get over 10 knots,

The VRS stated the wind was in excess of 35 knots, to the south,
5 metre waves to the south,
I was going north at 7 knots on my motor, Straight into it, Almost flat out, 8 knots is Maximum,
On the GPS, I was going south, backwards at one and a half knots,

If I had a MOB in front of me, I could never get to them as the wind and waves were taking me south, Away from them,
No, Im not being a S/A, I wish to learn,
Yes, I can run circles around a MOB in a power boat, But we are talking sailing boats here,

Thanks, Brian,
Very good questions Brian. The proper use of a Lifesling doesn’t involve the use of the engine, one simply tacks immediately into the wind without touching the sails and circles back around the person overboard. The LifeSling does the rest using it’s floating nylon rope.

Pam
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:07   #58
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

My husband and I read through the LifeSling article, and can’t picture how throwing a rope with a monkeys fist can possibly work, it seems to be a futile, desparate waste of valuable time. Using the LifeSling alone, my husband had the MOB back on board our Hunter in around three minutes and out of the 65 degree water. When the man and dog were back onboard, Ken reported to me that the MOB was frozen, but Leo the dog was fine.

Pam

From the article:

Case 9. Case 9 occurred during the SORC in 1979. It illustrates many of the problems encountered. A crewmember on a 46-foot sloop was relieving himself at the stern while his boat was beating in 30 knots of wind. He wore no harness but did have a float coat. He was 35 years old, a professional seaman, reported to be a strong swimmer and not prone to seasickness, although he had said that he was not feeling well. The water temperature was 78 degrees. Within two minutes the boat was brought head to wind and maneuvered under main alone to within about 20 feet from the victim. The crewmember had removed his float coat and was unable to grab a line thrown within reach. His only words were "Better Hurry".
The boat took another pass within two minutes, this time under engine and main. Several lines were thrown across him, but he made no effort to grab them. The boat made a third pass, again within two minutes, a crew member went over the side, reached the victim, but was unable to bring him to the boat before he disappeared. At some point, a line got around the propeller and there was difficulty in rehoisting the main. The second crewman was recovered, but the first was never seen again. In summary, the victim was able bodied and a strong swimmer in water too warm to produce sudden hypothermia. Nevertheless, he succumbed within six minutes.
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:12   #59
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I seriously missing some thing here, Please inform me,

You can sail around a MOB in a sailing vessel, Trailing a rope,
How soon does the rope wrap around the prop and you have no propulsion at all,
Are you that good a sailor you can do it on sails only,

Usually, a MOB would be in a min of 4 metre waves, Winds in excess of 30 knots,
And very rough seas, This is reality,
Water over the deck usually washes them overboard,
A lurching boat throws them overboard,
A boom knocks them overboard,
that might be some kind of mean average, but surprisingly reading the pdf not all of them are

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B
Who falls over in calm water other than a drunk,
oh lets say the infant, the infirmed, why does it matter?
I near fell of mine on the dock


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B
Do Mono sail boats have big motors and get over 10 knots,

The VRS stated the wind was in excess of 35 knots, to the south,
5 metre waves to the south,
I was going north at 7 knots on my motor, Straight into it, Almost flat out, 8 knots is Maximum,
On the GPS, I was going south, backwards at one and a half knots,
and the MOB isnt static either, but pushed by sea rather than wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B
If I had a MOB in front of me, I could never get to them as the wind and waves were taking me south, Away from them,
No, Im not being a S/A, I wish to learn,
Yes, I can run circles around a MOB in a power boat, But we are talking sailing boats here,

Thanks, Brian,
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Old 04-04-2018, 12:09   #60
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
My husband and I read through the LifeSling article, and can’t picture how throwing a rope with a monkeys fist can possibly work, it seems to be a futile, desparate waste of valuable time.. .
The point of the throwing line is that it can be thrown if you can't maneuver right up next to the casualty -- like in really rough conditions where you would bash the person to death in the trough. That's the first use case.

The second use case is in more benign conditions, where trailing it behind and circling can work, it is better suited to lifting someone in a harness. The life sling just gets in the way if the person already has a harness on. You can trail a floating line and circle, just like you can with a life sling.

Life sling is for people without a harness, and is a Godsend for such cases -- that is what is designed for, and that's why we always have a life sling on all our boats.

Both throwing line and life sling are essential tools in a MOB arsenal.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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