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Old 03-04-2018, 17:42   #31
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Being new to sailing I have often wondered what the best option might be to recover a MOB. Of course, not all situations in which a MOB may occur can be anticipated, and in the "Heat of the moment" there are many variables that may be present, I would think only training and practice of any scenario possible would produce the best outcome.
Again, I am new to Sailing and desire to learn all I can from those more experienced. Having done some white water kayaking, I wonder if a throw rope, might be a good idea? Example: https://www.nrs.com/product/45108.02...aist-throw-bag. We have one on deck along with the life ring and sling. Granted, they are short, but may be helpful?

Randy
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Old 03-04-2018, 20:55   #32
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo View Post
Have you actually saved a person using a LifeSling, or is yours an inexperienced opinion/speculation? The reason I ask, is my husband did save someone who jumped overboard by using a lifesling and we practice several times a year when he drops a life ring overboard for me to retrieve. And we have practiced the technique in less than ideal conditions, which is when the LifeSling truly shines. We also have a danBuoy on board along with drysuits and horseshoe throwables. But we’ll continue to count on what’s worked sucessfully for us in the past.

The rest of you can continue to speculate all you like, but I strongly suggest you listen to those with some actual experience.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Pam
I have experience in big sea conditions, which I guess you do not, or you would know that in such conditions you can't steam around in circles trailing such a device.

As I said - life sling is brilliant in benign conditions and when the casualty has no harness, so I have one on board this and previous boats, always.

Yes, I have pulled a person out of the water with one. It was an exercise (in warm Florida water!), not a live MOB case, but very useful experience. It works well.

Big sea conditions immensely complicate MOB recovery, so much so, that at first blush, it seems impossible. The first problem, as several people here have mentioned, is locating the casualty, a completely different proposition than when the sea is low. A few wave sets away and you simply can't see anything in the water.

Then the second problem, if you're lucky enough to solve the first, is getting close enough to get a line on without bashing the person's brains out, and bearing in mind the severely limited maneuverability you have in such conditions.

Normally you'd want to give the casualty a lee and pull him up over the side, as we see it being done in the Clipper videos, but after a certain sea state, you can't turn beam-on to the seas. Taking all way off can also be hazardous.
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Old 03-04-2018, 20:58   #33
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by DosAmantes View Post
Being new to sailing I have often wondered what the best option might be to recover a MOB. Of course, not all situations in which a MOB may occur can be anticipated, and in the "Heat of the moment" there are many variables that may be present, I would think only training and practice of any scenario possible would produce the best outcome.
Again, I am new to Sailing and desire to learn all I can from those more experienced. Having done some white water kayaking, I wonder if a throw rope, might be a good idea? Example: https://www.nrs.com/product/45108.02...aist-throw-bag. We have one on deck along with the life ring and sling. Granted, they are short, but may be helpful?

Randy
Of course a throw rope is a basic tool. I keep a floating throw rope with a monkeys fist on deck for this purpose.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 03-04-2018, 21:07   #34
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Plastimo makes both a personal inflatable dan buoy that fits in a pouch attached to your PFD belt and a boat launched one. The boat launched one is quite a bit larger and provides 150N flotation, while the personal one uses the person as the support and is not quite as tall.

https://www.plastimo.com/en/safety/i...dan-buoys.html

For sure even with a personal AIS locater a dan buoy helps find the MOB for the last couple hundred metres in any seas.

Hand held VHF radios make a lot of sense to enable the MOB to talk the boat back to them. While Google has found me a number of handheld VHFs with DSC and GPS capabilities (eg IC-M91D) I haven’t found one with AIS transmit capabilities that a previous poster mentioned. And as soon as you add DSC and GPS to a handheld VHF it gets bigger, heavier and more power hungry, so for mounting on a PFD a simple and small handheld VHF might be best.

In any case, you do need to be conscious to operate a radio and send a DSC call, while a personal AIS MOB unit will transmit automatically.
On the inflatable danbouy. Yes you could through one but would need to add something like a dive weight both to get any range and keep it upright. Think a traditional danbouy would work better.

On radios. I use a pair of Standard Horizon H/H (normal crew is 2) when on deck you wear one. They use the DSC system which means an MOB can activate a distress location on DSC that can show on a chart plotter as well as an all ship alert. The 'icing on the cake' is that you can poll the MOB radio from the one on board and it will automatically give its position with no user action (just needs to be on!). This means you can locate an MOB even if they are unable to help themselves. Range from in water to the other H/H is 1-2 miles depending on sea state. If activated the general alert has a range of 10-15 miles depending on aerial hight.
Not seen a H/H that uses AIS although there are AIS based MOB systems that use a base station and tags. For larger crews these may be more economical but for small crews are a bit pricey because of the cost of the base station. They also don't have the radio capability
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Old 03-04-2018, 21:17   #35
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Re OrinocoFlo
Yes I have actual experience. Casualty recovery as first on scene following a coast guard alert. Drift diving picking up divers (so relatively calm!). Have been swept of the deck and dragged by a tether in 30kn+ (yes I did need clean undies!!!) and lots of training exercises both as student and instructor.

You are absolutely right to ask and want to know what information is the result of experience, training or thinking.
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Old 03-04-2018, 22:21   #36
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Well, I have had lifeslings on all of my boats for decades, and have practiced with them. They are great for certain situations, but are very far from "all you'll ever need". You can't use them in big sea conditions where it's just not possible to steam around in circles. And you don't need them to recover crew wearing a harness. They are great for benign weather, when no one is wearing PFD's, and might really save a life. But that's not really the case we're preparing for.
I have one as well, I like the concept but Ive been thinking perhaps it could be improved. To me the problem was never about hauling the person from the water, but getting to a position where they were found or alongside.

The device itself can be improved to carry a strobe and AIS, even a rocket flare triggered by being released or having the lower parts immersed in water. The thing about a dan bouy is its visibility above the surface, so in a sea state or at night there are better options from both ends.

The MOB has a better chance of spotting the dan bouy and making for it, as opposed to being immobile in the water to keep an arm in the air or waiting for contact with the floating line.

And the crew on the boat have a better marker than relying on the last sighted position of the MOB who may be disappearing among wave crests.

Contributing agency can be found by wearing a harness or PFD, equipped with a strobe and AIS, and lets face it if you use AIS a personal communicator isnt such a leap.
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Old 03-04-2018, 22:35   #37
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

On Lifeslings. I have one and think it is a very good idea for final contact either by circling or streaming it astern. In addition if you have a snatch block fitted to the boom you can recover the MOB on the end of the boom to prevent them being slammed by the hull. Much easier for the MOB to slide into the sling than try and clip on (hands rapidly loose coordination through cold and exhaustion). Reaching down from the boat can only be done from a swim platform but that is a very dangerous place to position the MOB for recovery
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Old 03-04-2018, 23:25   #38
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

To learn from the experiences of others, I recommend an article to be found by an internet search for "Lifesling case history." It gives accounts of a hundred MOB incidents, not all involving Lifesling. It includes several cases of "boat disabled by line fouled in prop", MOB too cold/exhausted to help, PFD slips off upon attempting to hoist (no crotch strap), crew remaining onboard unprepared/ unable to operate boat or effect rescue.
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Old 03-04-2018, 23:37   #39
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

"Lifesling case history."
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Lifesling Case History.pdf (157.1 KB, 79 views)
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Old 03-04-2018, 23:56   #40
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I have experience in big sea conditions, which I guess you do not, or you would know that in such conditions you can't steam around in circles trailing such a device.

As I said - life sling is brilliant in benign conditions and when the casualty has no harness, so I have one on board this and previous boats, always.

Yes, I have pulled a person out of the water with one. It was an exercise (in warm Florida water!), not a live MOB case, but very useful experience. It works well.

Big sea conditions immensely complicate MOB recovery, so much so, that at first blush, it seems impossible. The first problem, as several people here have mentioned, is locating the casualty, a completely different proposition than when the sea is low. A few wave sets away and you simply can't see anything in the water.

Then the second problem, if you're lucky enough to solve the first, is getting close enough to get a line on without bashing the person's brains out, and bearing in mind the severely limited maneuverability you have in such conditions.

Normally you'd want to give the casualty a lee and pull him up over the side, as we see it being done in the Clipper videos, but after a certain sea state, you can't turn beam-on to the seas. Taking all way off can also be hazardous.
Then I guess you haven’t seen my video. Yep, that’s me going up and down, and I’m confident that I could rescue Ken in the unlikely event of him falling overboard. Unlikely because we both wear drysuits, avoid going forward in rough conditions, we wear life jackets, safety harnesses attached to jacklines etc. Plus we don’t intentionally go looking for “big seas.”

Let’s see your video.

Pam

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Old 04-04-2018, 00:04   #41
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
... Much easier for the MOB to slide into the sling than try and clip on (hands rapidly loose coordination through cold and exhaustion)....
I would challenge that. If the clip at the end of the rope is a non-locking climbing carabiner (I can't imagine it would logically be anything else), clipping a metal ring with mittens is nothing. On the other hand, rolling into a life sling while hypothermic and encumbered by an inflated PFD has proven impossible for many.

I leave a biner on the Lifesling, just in case that is easier for the swimmer. It also increases security.
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Old 04-04-2018, 00:46   #42
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
On Lifeslings. I have one and think it is a very good idea for final contact either by circling or streaming it astern. In addition if you have a snatch block fitted to the boom you can recover the MOB on the end of the boom to prevent them being slammed by the hull. Much easier for the MOB to slide into the sling than try and clip on (hands rapidly loose coordination through cold and exhaustion). Reaching down from the boat can only be done from a swim platform but that is a very dangerous place to position the MOB for recovery
Indeed. The usage case for the lifesling is dealing with a casualty who is not in a harness. It's good for that, but I have been lifted out with one, and it takes a lot of strength on the part of the casualty to hang on - it catches you under the shoulders. For a casualty weakened by cold water, I think a bosuns chair might be better. But I think plan A should be to always be in a harness when there is the slightest risk of going into cold water.

Note also that being lifted out by your shoulders would maximize the heart attack risk mentioned above, and as far as I understand, this is a serious consideration when there may be shock or cold water stress involved.
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Old 04-04-2018, 01:40   #43
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

I seriously missing some thing here, Please inform me,

You can sail around a MOB in a sailing vessel, Trailing a rope,
How soon does the rope wrap around the prop and you have no propulsion at all,
Are you that good a sailor you can do it on sails only,

Usually, a MOB would be in a min of 4 metre waves, Winds in excess of 30 knots,
And very rough seas, This is reality,
Water over the deck usually washes them overboard,
A lurching boat throws them overboard,
A boom knocks them overboard,

Who falls over in calm water other than a drunk,

Do Mono sail boats have big motors and get over 10 knots,

The VRS stated the wind was in excess of 35 knots, to the south,
5 metre waves to the south,
I was going north at 7 knots on my motor, Straight into it, Almost flat out, 8 knots is Maximum,
On the GPS, I was going south, backwards at one and a half knots,

If I had a MOB in front of me, I could never get to them as the wind and waves were taking me south, Away from them,
No, Im not being a S/A, I wish to learn,
Yes, I can run circles around a MOB in a power boat, But we are talking sailing boats here,

Thanks, Brian,
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:06   #44
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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I seriously missing some thing here, Please inform me,

You can sail around a MOB in a sailing vessel, Trailing a rope,
How soon does the rope wrap around the prop and you have no propulsion at all,


........
The floating life sling trails at the end of a floating rope (attached near the stern) so yes, you can motor around in a circle (seas permitting) without the rope or life sling becoming fouled in the prop.
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:16   #45
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Re: MOB Gear -- Are Dan Buoys and Life Rings Still Relevant?

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Well, easier said than done.

At the pointy end, that is pretty much impossible to guaranty, unless you are tethered to a halyard, which isn't really practical most times.
If there would be a serious need to go to the pointy end, I'd try connecting one tether to the left and one to the right (maybe toe rail). (Also a really short tether would do, but only in preplanned locations.)
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