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View Poll Results: I've experienced a major MOB event
Yes 11 20.00%
No 38 69.09%
something that falls between/outside yes/no 6 10.91%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13-09-2019, 19:18   #61
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

So after our experience, I hear all about this figure 8 thing and how it would have worked better than what I did. I thought I did really well with sailing the boat like you show. I had to do it 3 time before I caught her, it's really hard to keep your position. Kinda like trying to catch a mooring ball at sea that is starting to look very alarmed and is your wife to boot.
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Old 13-09-2019, 19:32   #62
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I think your correct, most donít sail around the Horn etc.
Most cruise for fun. Being lashed by cold waves and wind isnít my idea of fun. I donít even put on flip flops and a shirt unless we are going ashore.
I also think just as a guess that falling off a pontoon is more frequent than a MOB, and surprisingly at least in the US other than finding a boat with a swim platform etc., there is no way out of the water, there are no ladders etc, usually. Iím amazed at that I would assume Insurence at least would require it.
When our Daughters Lab fell in, I had to get her out on a neighbors swim platform.
So while falling off a pontoon may be funny, depending on the individuals health and water temp, it can end bad.
Ah, that reminds me, Ive never had an MOB, but have had a few POBs (Pets Over Board). One was a dog at night.
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Old 13-09-2019, 20:03   #63
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I have posted these before.



Here are the two MOBs under sail that I teach. Both involve heaving to as the final maneuver and picking up the MOB on leeward side. Plan to to the pick up at the shrouds. Aim to keep the MOB between the upper and lower shrouds.



Upwind (there is no sail adjustment, they are kept sheeted in)







Downwind (as you come about harden all sheets as best you can)







They work well on most monohull and some cats.



Under power I use either an Anderson turn







https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...-turn-1858.htm



or a Williamson turn







https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...-turn-2124.htm



I have done all with my students hundreds of times.

For inshore and light winds, sure, you can do these manoeuvres. Nice and tidy to teach and to learn and to get a shiny certificate.

Offshore (bigger waves) and/or moderate to higher winds, these techniques are useless. Especially when short handed. Worse than useless, because they give people false confidence and may not understand that other techniques are needed in less optimal conditions.

In 15 knots plus and with swells you canít keep your sails up and maintain safe speed and boat control to approach a MOB. So you need time to strike sails without shredding them and risking the rig. Then you need to find the MOB.

Only then can you retrieve them. One technique requires the use of a ring or horseshoe on the end of a long floating line. Approach the MOB from downwind and to the side, go upwind then curve around to windward of the MOB until abeam of them on the other side. Turn head to wind and hold. This drags the line in an arc around the MOB and will corral them towards the ring/horseshoe. Then pull the MOB towards the boat. Depending on the seas, whether the MOB can help themselves or not, decide on how to get them back aboard. Drag them up the back, lower a ladder or grappling net amidships, or attach a halyard to the ring/horseshoe.
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Old 13-09-2019, 20:37   #64
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
For inshore and light winds, sure, you can do these manoeuvres. Nice and tidy to teach and to learn and to get a shiny certificate.

Offshore (bigger waves) and/or moderate to higher winds, these techniques are useless. Especially when short handed. Worse than useless, because they give people false confidence and may not understand that other techniques are needed in less optimal conditions.

In 15 knots plus and with swells you canít keep your sails up and maintain safe speed and boat control to approach a MOB. So you need time to strike sails without shredding them and risking the rig. Then you need to find the MOB.

Only then can you retrieve them. One technique requires the use of a ring or horseshoe on the end of a long floating line. Approach the MOB from downwind and to the side, go upwind then curve around to windward of the MOB until abeam of them on the other side. Turn head to wind and hold. This drags the line in an arc around the MOB and will corral them towards the ring/horseshoe. Then pull the MOB towards the boat. Depending on the seas, whether the MOB can help themselves or not, decide on how to get them back aboard. Drag them up the back, lower a ladder or grappling net amidships, or attach a halyard to the ring/horseshoe.
Offshore my crews are tethered. And we would use a life sling.

BTW using a boarding ladder in rough seas is a recipe for an unconscious concussed crew member.

I wear a an MOB and AIS and I recommend that everyone wears one. Anyone know the first 3 digits of an MOB AIS MMSI?
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Old 13-09-2019, 23:11   #65
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I have posted these before.

Here are the two MOBs under sail that I teach. Both involve heaving to as the final maneuver and picking up the MOB on leeward side. Plan to to the pick up at the shrouds. Aim to keep the MOB between the upper and lower shrouds.

Upwind (there is no sail adjustment, they are kept sheeted in)



Downwind (as you come about harden all sheets as best you can)



They work well on most monohull and some cats.



https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...-turn-1858.htm

or a Williamson turn


I have done all with my students hundreds of times.

Have you considered and rejected the "quick stop method", and if so, what was your reasoning? I'd be interested to understand.



I was taught, decades ago, the classical figure eight methods such as these, but at least 20 years ago removed them from our own procedures after practice and study.



I think possibly different boats are different -- if you don't have much of an engine and/or have an elaborate amount of sail up and/or sails not on furlers, then you probably you do need a method like this which does not require quickly getting sails down.


But our boat at least is not that case, and we started using the "Quick Stop method" before it was named or anyone told us about it -- based on just common sense that you want at all costs to minimize your distance to the casualty, and you want to avoid as much as possible being distracted by any kind of complicated evolutions under sail. Quick Stop is now the official recommendation of RORC, by the way, and has replaced the classical methods in much teaching around the world.


The fundamental move for Quick Stop is to heave to as nearly instantly as you can manage it. Close hauled you just flip the pilot off and put the helm right over, and you can be hove to in a few boat lengths at most, depending on your speed, giving you an excellent chance of not even losing sight of the victim, depending on sea state of course. Downwind is trickier, but without a kite it can still be done in a matter of some seconds.


Then you get the motor on and take in the sails. If all your sails are on furlers, this can be done in a matter of seconds, even short handed. Meanwhile you are hove to, so not making more and more distance to the victim. This is especially crucial in my view offshore in any kind of sea state. This is just not the time, in my view, to be sailing around on different points of sail, working the sails, intentionally getting further from the victim, instead of concentrating on the victim and getting straight to him, ESPECIALLY on a short-handed boat.



Note how often failed MOB recoveries involve closing a lot of distance to the casualty, even casualties with beacons, and complicated maneuvers under sail. I think it's very important to minimize the distance to the casualty and then close that distance as quickly as possible. On our boat, 100 horsepower of Yanmar is the key tool for this; YMMV.




Fully agree with you about the AIS beacons; this is a total game changer which radically improves your chances of not dying if you fall overboard.
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Old 15-09-2019, 20:23   #66
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Have you considered and rejected the "quick stop method", and if so, what was your reasoning? I'd be interested to understand.




I think possibly different boats are different -- if you don't have much of an engine and/or have an elaborate amount of sail up and/or sails not on furlers, then you probably you do need a method like this which does not require quickly getting sails down.


But our boat at least is not that case, and we started using the "Quick Stop method" before it was named or anyone told us about it -- based on just common sense that you want at all costs to minimize your distance to the casualty, and you want to avoid as much as possible being distracted by any kind of complicated evolutions under sail. Quick Stop is now the official recommendation of RORC, by the way, and has replaced the classical methods in much teaching around the world.


The fundamental move for Quick Stop is to heave to as nearly instantly as you can manage it. Close hauled you just flip the pilot off and put the helm right over, and you can be hove to in a few boat lengths at most, depending on your speed, giving you an excellent chance of not even losing sight of the victim, depending on sea state of course. Downwind is trickier, but without a kite it can still be done in a matter of some seconds.


Then you get the motor on and take in the sails. If all your sails are on furlers, this can be done in a matter of seconds, even short handed. Meanwhile you are hove to, so not making more and more distance to the victim. This is especially crucial in my view offshore in any kind of sea state. This is just not the time, in my view, to be sailing around on different points of sail, working the sails, intentionally getting further from the victim, instead of concentrating on the victim and getting straight to him, ESPECIALLY on a short-handed boat.


The two methods under sail can be done single handed. Our instructors have to be able to execute all 4 MOB's by themselves.

You cannot heave-to going downwind and stay near the MOB.

Upwind, since the first move is heave-to, you might not need the rest of the maneuver.

Both MOB's under sail end hove-to.

The only one that involves working the sails is the downwind MOB.

The quick stop works upwind, not downwind.
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Old 15-09-2019, 22:24   #67
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

I've practiced quick stop downwind and it seems to work pretty well. It does take longer. You head up and trim the sails in as fast as you can (pretty fast on my boat with powered winches), then head through the wind to heave to. Then motor on and sails down.

You could just keep sailing and heave to next to the victim, and in some cases this might be faster, but what I really don't like about this is lack of fine control over placing the boat at the victim, and the faff if you miss and have to get under way all over again if you have a missed approach. It seems to me that this even increases the risk of running over the victim, especially in a lumpy sea.

I assume in case of a real MOB people might be nervous, conditions might not be perfect, it might not be totally simple to find or keep an eye on the victim, and this does not seem to me to be the right circumstances for some fancy maneuvers under sail. To each his own, but if I have a real MOB, I want the sails out of the way and the motor on, so I can fully concentrate on keeping the victim in view and getting right alongside him, with the full ability to back and fill or go straight into the wind if necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The two methods under sail can be done single handed. Our instructors have to be able to execute all 4 MOB's by themselves.

You cannot heave-to going downwind and stay near the MOB.

Upwind, since the first move is heave-to, you might not need the rest of the maneuver.

Both MOB's under sail end hove-to.

The only one that involves working the sails is the downwind MOB.

The quick stop works upwind, not downwind.
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 15-09-2019, 22:59   #68
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

Iíve done quick stops downwind on racing boats only - once for a MOB and several times for practice prior to ocean races. The quick stop is basically a broach - can be done almost immediately if the crew is trained that the call of ĎMOBí is followed by a broach. Hold on and prepare for the knockdown. Kicker (vang) must be thrown to avoid breaking the boom and spinnaker sheet (or genoa) also to be thrown to avoid breaking the rig as the sail goes into the water.

The times weíve done it in more than 15 knots of true wind it resulted in gear and/or sail damage, but did stop us relatively near the MOB. The one real MOB in 30 knots true had us drifting sideways with the rig near the water at about 2 knots and significant distance away from the MOB (lost sight) before we got the sails in and lines cleared.

IMO quick stops, figure 8s, Wakefield turns and all the other proximity techniques are too risky and dangerous for short handed crews in fresh or more offshore conditions. Heaving to is an option if on a close reaching or upwind course, but it depends on the boat (our cat for e.g., with its self tacking jib and shallow hulls, does not heave to).

With AIS personal locator beacons the crux of the problem changes from finding the MOB to retrieving the MOB. So there is no worry other than time in the water to putting some distance between the boat and the MOB while getting the sails sorted safely and the engine started. The emphasis in training on finding the MOB should be reduced. This does mean being prepared to go over before you go over - clothing, PFD, gear including personal locator beacon. Without a beacon then proximity becomes important, and arguably not achievable with a 2 person crew.

And for short handed crews the biggest problem is getting the MOB back on board - that is what should be practiced. Particularly if the MOB is incapacitated. This is the key technique to perfect, not figure 8s. IMO
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Old 15-09-2019, 23:45   #69
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Iíve done quick stops downwind on racing boats only - once for a MOB and several times for practice prior to ocean races. The quick stop is basically a broach - can be done almost immediately if the crew is trained that the call of ĎMOBí is followed by a broach. Hold on and prepare for the knockdown. Kicker (vang) must be thrown to avoid breaking the boom and spinnaker sheet (or genoa) also to be thrown to avoid breaking the rig as the sail goes into the water.

The times weíve done it in more than 15 knots of true wind it resulted in gear and/or sail damage, but did stop us relatively near the MOB. The one real MOB in 30 knots true had us drifting sideways with the rig near the water at about 2 knots and significant distance away from the MOB (lost sight) before we got the sails in and lines cleared.

IMO quick stops, figure 8s, Wakefield turns and all the other proximity techniques are too risky and dangerous for short handed crews in fresh or more offshore conditions. Heaving to is an option if on a close reaching or upwind course, but it depends on the boat (our cat for e.g., with its self tacking jib and shallow hulls, does not heave to).

With AIS personal locator beacons the crux of the problem changes from finding the MOB to retrieving the MOB. So there is no worry other than time in the water to putting some distance between the boat and the MOB while getting the sails sorted safely and the engine started. The emphasis in training on finding the MOB should be reduced. This does mean being prepared to go over before you go over - clothing, PFD, gear including personal locator beacon. Without a beacon then proximity becomes important, and arguably not achievable with a 2 person crew.

And for short handed crews the biggest problem is getting the MOB back on board - that is what should be practiced. Particularly if the MOB is incapacitated. This is the key technique to perfect, not figure 8s. IMO

A real MOB in 30 knots of true wind . . . wow. Your experience trivializes mine, I'm afraid.


Our technique downwind is not indeed to broach the boat, but to head up as quickly as the sails can be trimmed in, paying out the preventer under control as sheets are hauled in.


I've not practiced this in a gale of wind, but in 20 knots, even sailing fast on a broad reach, this works pretty well to get you stopped without getting too far away from the victim.


I agree 10000% with you about practicing hauling the victim out. We do practice that, and I think it's really useful for people to get actual experience being in the water in less than calm weather and in a lifejacket, and getting hauled out. Without exception everyone I've tried this on has said that it is very different from what he expected. To realize how important this is you only have to look at how many MOB's die after being found alive, when the crew can't get them on board.


Where I do not agree is that you don't need to practice FINDING the MOB. The AIS beacon is a game-changer, but ONLY IF YOU'RE WEARING IT. I don't know any cruising boat where everyone wears a life jacket all the time, so I think we need to practice and be prepared to save someone who goes over without the beacon.


I used to wear my own jacket only in really rough weather, and this year I've starting wearing it more often.
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Old 16-09-2019, 00:21   #70
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

I didnít say to stop practicing finding the MOB, just to reduce the emphasis. Iím returning or perhaps redirecting this thread to MOB in offshore cruising conditions, not near shore fully crewed.

Of course, without a beacon proximity is important, but a 2 handed crew, i.e. a couple, is likely not going to have both on deck when one goes over. Proximity non-existent and without a beacon itís an empty cockpit on waking up for the next watch.

With a beacon the AIS or chartplotter will sound an alarm, hopefully loud enough to wake the sleeper before sailing out of range of the MOB. Reciprocal courses now that we have plotters are much more accurate and reasonably sure to intersect with an MOB as they probably wonít drift much. As long as they can stay afloat and conscious all might be well.

We absolutely should practice for the common and easier use case of falling over while conducting an all hands manoeuvre and retrieving them conscious in gentle conditions. But we should also practice in rougher conditions the return from a distance (not with a real person unless very well prepared and controlled!!) and retrieve reduced/unconscious to be well prepared for real life offshore.
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Old 16-09-2019, 08:47   #71
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

I was on passage from Nassau to New York City on a 44ft catamaran about 100 miles north of the Bahamas, the morning after our first night at sea. A crew member, a good friend of mine I have know for about 30years, decided he wanted to have a bucket bath at the extreme end of the transom steps.

I told him to sit at the upper step, not stand at the end of the lowest step platform. He grumbled and said he would do as he pleased.
We were motoring into a northerly wind with a forecast southeast not having yet showed itself. Wind about 10knots, boat speed about seven knots.
My friend scooped up a bucket of water while standing at the transom and poured it over his head.
While his eyes were closed he lost his balance and fell overboard.

I had been watching him closely, fearing this might happen.
I shouted to other crew that were below that he was overboard, as all others were inside the salon. One person was immediately at my side and I told them to keep pointing at the MOB, lest his head be lost in the waves.
I slammed the engines into reverse - we had no sail up at the time - to full throttle and backed down towards him, guided by the person pointing. He was swimming towards the boat and one of the others (we were five onboard) went to the transom to help pull him onboard.

Other than a huge bruise developing just above his knee where he struck a cleat as he had fallen sideways off the transom platform, he was OK.
His teeth were chattering and he was in shock, realizing how close he had come to being lost. We wrapped him in a blanket and he lay at the salon table for a couple hours before getting up to get dressed.
I was furious with him for putting me in the position of possibly having a crew lost and drowned. If he had done as I had suggested, he would not have fallen over. It was him closing his eyes while standing, losing sight of the horizon on a moving boat, that caused him to lose his balance. Had he poured the water over his shoulders and kept his eyes open he probably would not have fallen overboard.

He was contrite and now, about nine years later, still mentions the episode and how right I was and how wrong he was.
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Old 16-09-2019, 12:47   #72
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

Once. I was a teenager driving a powerboat and my father provided an example of what not to do. It was at night, but it was a jet and had a swim step, so recovery was fairly easy.
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Old 16-09-2019, 15:20   #73
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

I lost a very good friend who went overboard on his first night out as a commercial fisherman. He wasn't noticed missing for a while. (I don't know how long as I wasn't on the boat). They never found him. With the reasonable cost of a MOB AIS system there is no reason not to have them. The fobs can be worn as a watch on one model. Compared to the cost of our boats this is a no brainer.
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Old 16-09-2019, 16:04   #74
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

Having been the MOB at night I can attest that there is nothing quite as dispiriting as the sight of the stern-light vanishing off into the distance.

Setting out to swim the roughly 1 mile to the nearest bit of solid ground was an easy decision Ö*float around waiting before deciding just puts you further down the hypothermia slope. However, if you aren't in swimming distance of land Ö staying put in the hope of rescue is the best course Ö as there's nowhere else to swim to and the last known position is the best place to be.

Fortunately, the only other person on board, who had been up in the bow, enjoying the starry sky and a quiet smoke, did notice there was no-one on the helm after a while. He reversed course and sailed a reciprocal Ö called the coastguard and pretty soon I had the boat to swim to and a helicopter overhead lighting the way.

Yay the coastguard! Yay he was only smoking a cigarette and not a long cigar! Yay for buoyancy! Dumb-dumb award for leaving the helm to take a pee over the side without alerting anyone!
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Old 24-09-2019, 13:13   #75
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Re: MOB Experience/Frequency

wife went into the water yesterday, falling between the dock and the boat

she didn't get hurt too bad, but it really showed me just how hard it is to get someone back on the boat, and this was for calm condition at the dock!
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