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Old 04-04-2020, 09:34   #1
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Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

This is a brainstorming thread. Dumb ideas welcome.



Replacement cartridges for masks are impossible to find, even non-particulate types. Forget buying a mask, I hope you already have one. Are there ways to stretch their use?
  • More ventilation, less mask wear. Stay up-wind when painting.
  • Lower VOC paints.
  • Put a cloth over the inlet to catch dust. They make paint mist prefilters, but you can't get them. Fleece and tape or a rubber band will do.
  • Refill carbon. It's still available.
Dust masks. Will some (not all!) of the new DIY patterns make more sense than some of the disposables? Need forces innovation.


Increased use of vacuum sanders (you still need a mask) or wet sanding. More scraping and less sanding?


Tyveks seem available. Examination gloves are unavailable, but work gloves are still available.
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Old 04-04-2020, 10:12   #2
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

All seem to be good ideas IMO.

I have always used a paper towel with rubber band over the cartridges. Seems to help extend cartridge life when used for dust. Not sure that it would have an effect when using for VOC application but hey, it shouldn't hurt. Lower VOC paints should also help extend VOC cartridge life.

I drive a Hand-Van (equipped with a wheelchair lift) for the county. Have been using my dust masks when I transport. I am down to about 4 and my wife (who is a good seamstress) made a couple DIY ones - the old surgical mask style like they wore on M.A.S.H. They have the pocket so you can add a filter (blue shop towel material - tyvec might work also) to provide three layers of filtration. They seem to me to be as effective as the low end commercial masks I've been using but might be a little gappy on the cheeks (for me). But naturally they (and the low end masks) are no where near as effective as the cartridge type which seal against the face.

When wet-sanding I have never found and mask to be necessary, and I have sinus issues where the slightest amount of dust would cause me problems. Just keep things wet. But wet sanding isn't as effective when you have to remove a lot of material, you naturally cannot use electric sanders, and running pneumatic equipment (make sure it's rated for wet work) can get expensive - runs up your electric bill - fast! Now, if it's the boat yard's electricity...
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Old 04-04-2020, 10:28   #3
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

You pretty much cover the bases, fans whenever possible too of course, wet down the work area ground / floor not all dust comes off of what your sanding.
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Old 04-04-2020, 11:52   #4
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

hmmm . . . . I guess I think optional boat work with requires more than a DIY reusable cloth mask should probably just be postponed. This IS a pretty significant national emergency and your boat really does not need that fresh paint right this month.

We can all make pretty decent cloth DIY masks, so if that is sufficient for the job just make a couple and go for it.

There is a line between DIY mask being ok vs not. Spray painting two part is almost certainly beyond/over the line while brush painting one part is probably fine. Sanding wood probably ok, while sanding carbon and epoxy probably not so much (although in the past a ton of boat workers have done with no mask at all).

But I guess my overall feeling is we need to recognize this is a 1st world optional activity and just take it easy on any resources that might be socially in short supply.
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Old 04-04-2020, 12:11   #5
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

Good points.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
hmmm . . . . I guess I think optional boat work with requires more than a DIY reusable cloth mask should probably just be postponed. This IS a pretty significant national emergency and your boat really does not need that fresh paint right this month.


(In part, I meant to imply that lessons learned should be valuable after the crisis too. For example, I have always used paint mist pre-filters, because they save filters.)


We can all make pretty decent cloth DIY masks, so if that is sufficient for the job just make a couple and go for it.

There is a line between DIY mask being ok vs not. Spray painting two part is almost certainly beyond/over the line while brush painting one part is probably fine (I should have added that; often brushing does not require mask, but spraying does). Sanding wood probably ok, while sanding carbon and epoxy probably not so much (although in the past a ton of boat workers have done with no mask at all).

But I guess my overall feeling is we need to recognize this is a 1st world optional activity and just take it easy on any resources that might be socially in short supply.

The OSHA guidance on PPE has always been...


  • Engineering controls (water based pint, for example).
  • Administrative controls (social distancing, wet sanding).
  • PPE if all else fails.
So reducing the need for PPE, both in this crisis and in the future, is always a goal.
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Old 04-04-2020, 17:04   #6
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

Quote:
water based pint, for example)
I think that one will be hard to sell down at the pub, mate!

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Old 05-04-2020, 05:07   #7
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Good points.






The OSHA guidance on PPE has always been...


  • Engineering controls (water based pint, for example).
  • Administrative controls (social distancing, wet sanding).
  • PPE if all else fails.
So reducing the need for PPE, both in this crisis and in the future, is always a goal.


Water based paints are the way to go

The Epifanes water based interior semi gloss varnish is a pleasure to use


The two part water based polyurethanes are Much less toxic
https://www.systemthree.com/products/wr-lpu-polyurethane-topcoat


Another advantage is application , cheap hardware store airless sprayers can handle these paints
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Old 05-04-2020, 08:55   #8
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
This is a brainstorming thread. Dumb ideas welcome.



Replacement cartridges for masks are impossible to find, even non-particulate types. Forget buying a mask, I hope you already have one. Are there ways to stretch their use?
  • More ventilation, less mask wear. Stay up-wind when painting.
  • Lower VOC paints.
  • Put a cloth over the inlet to catch dust. They make paint mist prefilters, but you can't get them. Fleece and tape or a rubber band will do.
  • Refill carbon. It's still available.
Dust masks. Will some (not all!) of the new DIY patterns make more sense than some of the disposables? Need forces innovation.


Increased use of vacuum sanders (you still need a mask) or wet sanding. More scraping and less sanding?


Tyveks seem available. Examination gloves are unavailable, but work gloves are still available.
Good thoughts. Paint is one issue, dust & particulates another I guess. In any case we never spray, but use a roller and brush for all paint work. No respirator or mask.
We wear 3M 7000's for all sanding, grinding and welding. This is a lightweight half-mask of silicone with disposable filters. But regardless of what brand respirator you have, if it has replaceable filters you most likely can extend their life quite a lot by gently blowing dust from the inside to the outside of the filter. We use a bicycle tire pump. Lung power probably isn't enough. We wouldn't use a compressor, nor do we wash the filters. A industrial hygienist (!?) told me years ago that as long as you can breath comfortably thru the filter, it's still useable. Take that for what it's worth. For as much grinding and welding as I do these days, I probably get a year out of a pair of filters. But again, no paint or solvents.
Regarding homemade dust masks, we're using cotton bandanas and hair tie-backs, with plans to make these all over the internet just now.
We added HEPA vacuum cleaner bags, (which we had on hand) cut to fit inside the mask, for a bit of extra protection. Does it work? Who knows. Take the HEPA part out before washing the bandana! Good luck and good health.
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Old 05-04-2020, 09:17   #9
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

This is interesting:

https://www.businessinsider.com/home...-better-2020-4

According to the article (many of) the heavy duty blue shop towels provide very good filtration - down to .3 micron with efficiencies of 90+%. Towels can be cut and used as filters in cloth masks, and are durable enough to be sown into masks themselves.
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Old 05-04-2020, 12:57   #10
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

I have a wild idea. Try one of these snorkel masks

https://www.amazon.com/Unigear-Panor...7WP3C4CM8H4YV9

Hook it up to an oilless compressor to bring you clean air from a distance away.
I am trying to rig one up as a portable filtered air run off an 18-volt tool battery.
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Old 05-04-2020, 13:06   #11
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

The problem I see with adding HEPA filtration inserts to surgeon-style DIY fasks is that the HEPA material is naturally more resistant to air flow. The air will take the path of least resistance, which then becomes the enormous leaks around the nose and jar.



Without a fit test, my fear is that a HEPA element can actually make a poorly fitted mask worse. Lots of variables, but I suspect fit is more important than the material in most cases. If you feel cool air anywhere on the perimeter when inhaling, the mask is leaking badly.
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Old 05-04-2020, 13:23   #12
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

I heard a long time ago that if you covered your air breather in car w/ felt never have to replace . just replace the felt.
I sewed up a piece of felt into a circle with same size diameter as my air filter and was 2" taller . 1" top 1" below drove car about 6 months and traded off so never checked it . But worth a shot now.
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Old 06-04-2020, 17:26   #13
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

Quote:
Dumb ideas welcome.
My wife was telling me she read an online account of a doctor's wife who cut HEPA vacuum cleaner bags to make face masks, which were proved to filter about the same as an N95 face mask. Perhaps pieces cut from HEPA vacuum bags would work?
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Old 07-04-2020, 05:01   #14
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

Has anyone tried breathing through a 1 micron water filter bag. The sock type. I just ordered one for a boat water filter , for rain water. Something to play with while home for the duration.
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Old 07-04-2020, 05:46   #15
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Re: Mask Design--Carry over into boat yard masks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthehard View Post
My wife was telling me she read an online account of a doctor's wife who cut HEPA vacuum cleaner bags to make face masks, which were proved to filter about the same as an N95 face mask. Perhaps pieces cut from HEPA vacuum bags would work?
I tried this. One of the best fitting (meaning no leaks) mask styles, and the materials should be very efficient. Pretty cheap, and you can make one without sewing, using athletic tape.

https://mikeshouts.com/doctor-explai...est-face-mask/

I imagine 1 micron bag filter material would do a very good job. It would be washable and probably a good deal better fit and more comfortable than than the typical N95 disposable mask.

Very interesting ideas. I wonder if there could be a class of HEPA masks based on fabric or less rigid material that would be better (better fit, more comfortable) than current designs. I have sometimes struggled with mask fit tests due to a prominent nose ridge and jaw line.
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