Liferaft: Yes or No

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by hafa

Thanks for the link, Paul.

Mr. Starzinger's arguments in regards to safety gear are subjective, specious to an extent, and rather presumptuous. Bit of a shame, really, as they detract from his otherwise well-considered advice.

Given that he and his wife have been around the world at least once, built their own moderately high performance boat and sailed it in high latitudes (Tierra Del Fuego) for an extended period of time I going to say that you are being a bit presumptuous in your condescension of his opinions.

He has considerably more experience than almost anyone on this forum and he is an excellent researcher.

I may not agree with everything he writes but even the issues I disagree with him on he is well reasoned. Some of his opinions may be wrong, but specious, not hardly.

You want to disagree with him fine. Make your arguments.

[hafa]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Make your arguments.

Extensive experience in sailing does not qualify one as an armchair psychologist. His subjective analysis of human behavior is potentially erroneous when applied to others, myself particularly.

He presumes that others think and act as he does or as he believes they might. He is therefore presumptuous. His statements regarding human behavior appear to be correct on the surface, but when applied to a population that may not think or act as he does, or as he believes they might, fall apart and are therefore specious.

I'll state again: Bit of a shame, really, as these statements detract from his otherwise well-considered advice.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I don't think it is useful to say Other than money. It is really how money is allocated to saftey gear and training. There is a ton of saftey gear marketed to cruisers that would prohibitively expensive to take them all. Is a life- raft worth the $2,500 to purchase and $500 a year to maintain?
For my type of cruising the answer is yes. Most all of the cruising boats we see that crossed the S. Pacific have one.
I can certainly see people taking the opposite choice. Evans Starzinger has made some arguments against a life raft
Seamanship
Here's the beginning of the argument, you get the whole thing at the link.

Its reality, what other reason is there? Space and weight, not in my view. The only reason you wouldn't have one is if you didn't want to spend the money. That fits directly into your allocation of money, or I will put it another way, don't want to spend the money on a life raft in order to spend it on something else.
I don't like or want to spend money on a life raft but do because the pain of potential consequences is greater than the pain of spending the money.

Im familiar with Evans argument but respectively disagree. I knew people that had an extremely well maintained Malo 46. Rudder started to self distruct 400nm west of the Seychelles, they were taking on water that sooner or later would of overwhelmed them....my point is stuff can happen that you cant fix even on very good boats. They got rescued by a ship but lost the boat. The argument regarding maintain your boat etc etc is ridiculous, maintaining your boat is just good seamanship. Another mate lost his boat of the coast of new Zealand, hit something and the water ingression was such that the boat was under in 15mins. Dinghy and mobile phone saved his life.

Its a personal choice. If people don't want to spend the money that's their choice, if they don't have the money then that's just the way it is, but ultimately it comes down to money for most with very few exceptions.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by hafa

Extensive experience in sailing does not qualify one as an armchair psychologist. His subjective analysis of human behavior is potentially erroneous when applied to others, myself particularly.

He presumes that others think and act as he does or as he believes they might. He is therefore presumptuous. His statements regarding human behavior appear to be correct on the surface, but when applied to a population that may not think or act as he does, or as he believes they might, fall apart and are therefore specious.

I'll state again: Bit of a shame, really, as these statements detract from his otherwise well-considered advice.

Actually any experience qualifies one as an armchair psychologist, just as any experience qualifies one to be an armchair cruiser on this forum. After all they let me on.

In EStarzinger's case his background is in management consulting so it is reasonable to suppose that he has significant experience with assessing psychology directly or indirectly on a professional basis. Hard to say, I'm not going to ask him.

Going back a step, all analysis of human behavior is subjective, even that by trained psychologists. The only analysis of humans that might be objective would be done by aliens, but even they they would have their own preconceived expectations of how sapients should act when they analysed human behavior so their would still be some subjectivity in their analysis.

Finally you keep using the word presumptuous. To quote from "The Princess Bride", I don't think that words means what you think it means. The dictionary definition "(of a person or their behavior) failing to observe the limits of what is permitted or appropriate." By that definition you seem to be saying he's overstepped what is permitted to be said, or more directly he shouldn't have voiced his opinion. Perhaps the word you wanted to to use was "pretentious".

[boatman61]

I have a liferaft.. it came with the boat..
Would I buy one.. No..!!!
Always carried a semi-inflated slat bottomed on the foredeck with oars, pump and water.. dry sack to hand.
Experience with liferafts on survival courses leans me that way..

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Brob2

In my coastal sailing I always had more fear of a collision with a ufo or a ship necessitating the use of a life raft rather than a storm. Yodo.

I have an old gas cooker, I carry a life raft.

What does astonish me is the cost US side, almost worth filling up a yacht and sailing it across then re-selling them. Offshore 4 man liferaft £600 (£750) inc 20% VAT.

Pete

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by RTB

I voted no, but we will be cruising from Texas to the Bahamas. I'll take my chances. My dink will have to do, if things go bad....

Regattas have many rules. We had to strip the coating off the lifelines to do the Harvest Moon Regatta.

Generally such rules have sound reasoning behind them. My sense is that a liferaft is primarily for any crew who are on board. The skipper has a profound responsibility to protect them. If you are single handing then it is your choice.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Generally such rules have sound reasoning behind them. . . .

Yes but sometimes the sound reasoning is legal protection for the regatta organizers.

The poll being 2:1 tells me there is a supermajority but not a concensus among cruisers that liferafts are a safety necessity

Any judge and/or jury you are likely to get at trial will not be educated cruisers so are more likely to be swayed that a liferaft should be mandatory equipment.

[KetoNomad]

Well, just as I said, it's partially a space and weight issue, not to mention windage making heaving to more tricky but also the unlikely efficacy of the liferaft if my boat sinks due to waves.

It'd make sense to have one in case of fire but I'd rather just go with larger fire extinguishers and alarms. Best to keep the main boat afloat IMO. 😀

[hafa]

Interesting that many seem to think that having a liferaft means that one will not make it a priority to keep the main boat afloat. I'll stick with the "step up into it" school of thought. The automated deployment system should help with that.

Originally Posted by AiniA

My sense is that a liferaft is primarily for any crew who are on board. The skipper has a profound responsibility to protect them. If you are single handing then it is your choice.

QFT. Larger boats (with accompanying crew) are also affected less by weight, windage, etc.

[fallingeggs]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I have an old gas cooker, I carry a life raft.



What does astonish me is the cost US side, almost worth filling up a yacht and sailing it across then re-selling them. Offshore 4 man liferaft £600 (£750) inc 20% VAT.



Pete

I have heard that life rafts in Europe / everywhere else are cheaper than in the US. Here I can't seem to find one for less than $2k.

What is the reason for this? Are there higher certification standards in the US that push the price up? Normally, we are on the cheaper side.

[boatman61]

No.. its just they know you guys are obsessed with being safe..

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No.. its just they know you guys are obsessed with being safe..

Actually I am obsessed with living, I like it! If I can sway the odds favoribly in this crap shoot, then why not? Theres no guarantees obviously but thoughtful planning to deal with the "what ifs" is prudent seamanship, both on the sea and land, its worked for me so far :-)

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Cthoops]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No.. its just they know you guys are obsessed with being safe..

A memorable quote I read from a newspaper columnist a few years ago (talking about health care in the U.S., and likely stolen from elsewhere): Americans think death is optional. As an American, I thought it was hysterical because it's so true.

On topic - We won't be carrying a liferaft when we leave.

[DotDun]

This group was glad they had a life raft.

Good Samaritan helps rescue 5 people from boat fire, officials...