Cruisers Forum
 


View Poll Results: do you plan to have a liferaft on your boat when heading out to cruise?
yes 182 65.23%
no 97 34.77%
Voters: 279. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-04-2017, 22:09   #406
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,638
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Quote:
Originally Posted by hafa View Post
Thanks for the link, Paul.

Mr. Starzinger's arguments in regards to safety gear are subjective, specious to an extent, and rather presumptuous. Bit of a shame, really, as they detract from his otherwise well-considered advice.
Given that he and his wife have been around the world at least once, built their own moderately high performance boat and sailed it in high latitudes (Tierra Del Fuego) for an extended period of time I going to say that you are being a bit presumptuous in your condescension of his opinions.

He has considerably more experience than almost anyone on this forum and he is an excellent researcher.

I may not agree with everything he writes but even the issues I disagree with him on he is well reasoned. Some of his opinions may be wrong, but specious, not hardly.

You want to disagree with him fine. Make your arguments.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 22:51   #407
Registered User
 
hafa's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Saipan
Boat: Hunter Legend 40.1
Posts: 325
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Make your arguments.
Extensive experience in sailing does not qualify one as an armchair psychologist. His subjective analysis of human behavior is potentially erroneous when applied to others, myself particularly.

He presumes that others think and act as he does or as he believes they might. He is therefore presumptuous. His statements regarding human behavior appear to be correct on the surface, but when applied to a population that may not think or act as he does, or as he believes they might, fall apart and are therefore specious.

I'll state again: Bit of a shame, really, as these statements detract from his otherwise well-considered advice.
hafa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 00:57   #408
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
I don't think it is useful to say Other than money. It is really how money is allocated to saftey gear and training. There is a ton of saftey gear marketed to cruisers that would prohibitively expensive to take them all. Is a life- raft worth the $2,500 to purchase and $500 a year to maintain?
For my type of cruising the answer is yes. Most all of the cruising boats we see that crossed the S. Pacific have one.
I can certainly see people taking the opposite choice. Evans Starzinger has made some arguments against a life raft
Seamanship
Here's the beginning of the argument, you get the whole thing at the link.
Its reality, what other reason is there? Space and weight, not in my view. The only reason you wouldn't have one is if you didn't want to spend the money. That fits directly into your allocation of money, or I will put it another way, don't want to spend the money on a life raft in order to spend it on something else.
I don't like or want to spend money on a life raft but do because the pain of potential consequences is greater than the pain of spending the money.

Im familiar with Evans argument but respectively disagree. I knew people that had an extremely well maintained Malo 46. Rudder started to self distruct 400nm west of the Seychelles, they were taking on water that sooner or later would of overwhelmed them....my point is stuff can happen that you cant fix even on very good boats. They got rescued by a ship but lost the boat. The argument regarding maintain your boat etc etc is ridiculous, maintaining your boat is just good seamanship. Another mate lost his boat of the coast of new Zealand, hit something and the water ingression was such that the boat was under in 15mins. Dinghy and mobile phone saved his life.

Its a personal choice. If people don't want to spend the money that's their choice, if they don't have the money then that's just the way it is, but ultimately it comes down to money for most with very few exceptions.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 06:10   #409
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,638
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Quote:
Originally Posted by hafa View Post
Extensive experience in sailing does not qualify one as an armchair psychologist. His subjective analysis of human behavior is potentially erroneous when applied to others, myself particularly.

He presumes that others think and act as he does or as he believes they might. He is therefore presumptuous. His statements regarding human behavior appear to be correct on the surface, but when applied to a population that may not think or act as he does, or as he believes they might, fall apart and are therefore specious.

I'll state again: Bit of a shame, really, as these statements detract from his otherwise well-considered advice.
Actually any experience qualifies one as an armchair psychologist, just as any experience qualifies one to be an armchair cruiser on this forum. After all they let me on.

In EStarzinger's case his background is in management consulting so it is reasonable to suppose that he has significant experience with assessing psychology directly or indirectly on a professional basis. Hard to say, I'm not going to ask him.

Going back a step, all analysis of human behavior is subjective, even that by trained psychologists. The only analysis of humans that might be objective would be done by aliens, but even they they would have their own preconceived expectations of how sapients should act when they analysed human behavior so their would still be some subjectivity in their analysis.

Finally you keep using the word presumptuous. To quote from "The Princess Bride", I don't think that words means what you think it means. The dictionary definition "(of a person or their behavior) failing to observe the limits of what is permitted or appropriate." By that definition you seem to be saying he's overstepped what is permitted to be said, or more directly he shouldn't have voiced his opinion. Perhaps the word you wanted to to use was "pretentious".
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 06:39   #410
Senior Cruiser
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,724
Images: 2
pirate Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

I have a liferaft.. it came with the boat..
Would I buy one.. No..!!!
Always carried a semi-inflated slat bottomed on the foredeck with oars, pump and water.. dry sack to hand.
Experience with liferafts on survival courses leans me that way..
__________________

You can't beat a people up for 75 years and have them say.. "I Love You.. ".
"I am not less life-loving than you are.
But I cannot sell my birthright, nor am I prepared to sell the birthright of the people to be free." Nelson Mandela.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 07:10   #411
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,535
Images: 22
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brob2 View Post
In my coastal sailing I always had more fear of a collision with a ufo or a ship necessitating the use of a life raft rather than a storm. Yodo.
I have an old gas cooker, I carry a life raft.

What does astonish me is the cost US side, almost worth filling up a yacht and sailing it across then re-selling them. Offshore 4 man liferaft £600 (£750) inc 20% VAT.

Pete
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 07:21   #412
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Toronto area when not travelling
Boat: Nonsuch 30
Posts: 1,678
Re: liferaft - yes/no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTB View Post
I voted no, but we will be cruising from Texas to the Bahamas. I'll take my chances. My dink will have to do, if things go bad....

Regattas have many rules. We had to strip the coating off the lifelines to do the Harvest Moon Regatta.
Generally such rules have sound reasoning behind them. My sense is that a liferaft is primarily for any crew who are on board. The skipper has a profound responsibility to protect them. If you are single handing then it is your choice.
__________________
Have taken on the restoration of the first Nonsuch, which was launched in 1978. Needs some deck work, hull compounding, and a bit of new gear.
AiniA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 08:38   #413
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,638
Re: liferaft - yes/no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AiniA View Post
Generally such rules have sound reasoning behind them. . . .


Yes but sometimes the sound reasoning is legal protection for the regatta organizers.

The poll being 2:1 tells me there is a supermajority but not a concensus among cruisers that liferafts are a safety necessity

Any judge and/or jury you are likely to get at trial will not be educated cruisers so are more likely to be swayed that a liferaft should be mandatory equipment.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 09:15   #414
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Jolly ol' England at the moment
Boat: Albin Vega
Posts: 302
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Well, just as I said, it's partially a space and weight issue, not to mention windage making heaving to more tricky but also the unlikely efficacy of the liferaft if my boat sinks due to waves.

It'd make sense to have one in case of fire but I'd rather just go with larger fire extinguishers and alarms. Best to keep the main boat afloat IMO. 😀
KetoNomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 12:35   #415
Registered User
 
hafa's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Saipan
Boat: Hunter Legend 40.1
Posts: 325
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Interesting that many seem to think that having a liferaft means that one will not make it a priority to keep the main boat afloat. I'll stick with the "step up into it" school of thought. The automated deployment system should help with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AiniA View Post
My sense is that a liferaft is primarily for any crew who are on board. The skipper has a profound responsibility to protect them. If you are single handing then it is your choice.
QFT. Larger boats (with accompanying crew) are also affected less by weight, windage, etc.
hafa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 16:24   #416
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Astoria, NY
Boat: Sabre 38
Posts: 566
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
I have an old gas cooker, I carry a life raft.



What does astonish me is the cost US side, almost worth filling up a yacht and sailing it across then re-selling them. Offshore 4 man liferaft £600 (£750) inc 20% VAT.



Pete


I have heard that life rafts in Europe / everywhere else are cheaper than in the US. Here I can't seem to find one for less than $2k.

What is the reason for this? Are there higher certification standards in the US that push the price up? Normally, we are on the cheaper side.
__________________
Stephen

s/v Carpe Ventum
1983 Sabre 38
My Intro
fallingeggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 16:40   #417
Senior Cruiser
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,724
Images: 2
pirate Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

No.. its just they know you guys are obsessed with being safe..
__________________

You can't beat a people up for 75 years and have them say.. "I Love You.. ".
"I am not less life-loving than you are.
But I cannot sell my birthright, nor am I prepared to sell the birthright of the people to be free." Nelson Mandela.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 16:57   #418
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
No.. its just they know you guys are obsessed with being safe..
Actually I am obsessed with living, I like it! If I can sway the odds favoribly in this crap shoot, then why not? Theres no guarantees obviously but thoughtful planning to deal with the "what ifs" is prudent seamanship, both on the sea and land, its worked for me so far :-)

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 17:49   #419
Registered User
 
Cthoops's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wherever the boat is.
Boat: Bristol 29.9
Posts: 626
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
No.. its just they know you guys are obsessed with being safe..
A memorable quote I read from a newspaper columnist a few years ago (talking about health care in the U.S., and likely stolen from elsewhere): Americans think death is optional. As an American, I thought it was hysterical because it's so true.

On topic - We won't be carrying a liferaft when we leave.
__________________
Our blog: https://www.adventuresontheclub.com
Cthoops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 19:19   #420
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,823
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No

This group was glad they had a life raft.

Good Samaritan helps rescue 5 people from boat fire, officials...
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
liferaft

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Self-Service Liferaft Design - Interested ? David_Old_Jersey Health, Safety & Related Gear 80 12-12-2019 21:22
For Sale: Liferaft: 8-Person Plastimo Transocean George P Classifieds Archive 5 16-12-2011 10:59
Sailing without a Liferaft or EPIRB Rory B Health, Safety & Related Gear 27 09-10-2011 09:19
Liferaft AquaticUrsidae Health, Safety & Related Gear 1 11-07-2011 21:42
Lavezzi 40: Removal of Liferaft Recess in Rear of Lavezzi Cruisin Cat Fountaine Pajot 1 07-07-2011 13:21

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.