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Old 24-04-2020, 17:59   #1
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Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

For storm survival we decided to go with a Jordan Series Drogue (JSD) rather than a sea anchor due to the propensity of our lightweight cat to yaw at anchor. Note: this thread is not about the selection of a JSD; it’s about assembling a JSD using Dyneema for bridle and rode.

We got 156 cones (based on multihull with loaded displacement 12,000kg) from Ocean Brake Home (unfortunately they’re redoing their website right now so no info there right now). We got cones only as we didn’t want the weight and bulk of double braided polyester (would have been 22mm/7/8” bridle and leader, 18mm/3/4” first, and 14mm/7/16” tail). We’ve used 12mm, 10mm and 8mm Acera Amundsen (Dyneema from Timms Ropes, sourced from Greenline Fishing Gear Greenline Fishing Gear - Home) instead.

Ocean Brake recommends 18kg of weight for this drogue when using double braid polyester. Since the Dyneema floats, there needs to be additional weight, based on some reported testing that I can’t find right now.

I asked Ocean Brake and they recommended 20-22kg of weight. That’s a bit less than I would have expected. Any thoughts?
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Old 24-04-2020, 18:10   #2
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

I think dockhead has a series drogue with dyneema - you could message him
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Old 24-04-2020, 18:13   #3
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

The only weight difference should be in the buoyancy of the line, and I don’t think it’s really that much, 8 lbs should be plenty.
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Old 24-04-2020, 18:30   #4
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Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Plenty of time while we’re in lockdown so I’m finally assembling the 156 cone JSD. The cones had been sitting in their box about 1 year and the bridle and rode segments were spliced and set about 6 months ago.

Here are the first 75 cones ready to go onto the 40m of 8mm tail. The cones are mounted on a cardboard tube and the JSD line goes through the middle.

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Here’s what each installed cone looks like. One of the challenges is to ensure the line isn’t twisted between back and front tapes.

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Each cone has six webbing tapes, three in either direction. Each tape is lead through the line at 67 degrees twice (4 strands one direction and two strands opposite direction) and knotted off with a figure 8. This may be overkill, but better safe than sorry - the Acera Amundsen line that I am using is very slippery.

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I had marked the line ahead of time to make it easier to place the tapes using this template. Cones are 50cm (16”) apart.

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Here’s how each section is connected to the next, using a modified strop bend (I think that’s the correct name for an undressed cow hitch). An alternative would be to end to end splice. Each eye is Brummel lock spliced.

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The boat end of the JSD rode will be an eye with a modified strop bend and the two eyes of the bridles (can’t show them as they’re currently taking the place of our removed forestay). Each eye has Dyneema chafe sleeve held in place by whippings.

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4 weeks of lockdown and there’s only 15 cones left before I’m DONE! Phew.

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Old 25-04-2020, 08:19   #5
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Nice work!

My wife and I assembled a JSD from using cones from a SailRite kit a few years ago for our last boat which we have brought along to our new boat although it is not really set up right for the new boat. It needs more cones and a wider bridle as the new boat is a cat. With the bulk of the double braid polyester moving the thing around is like wrestling with a loaded body bag. I've been considering either reusing the cones and changing all the lines to dyneema or just selling it and starting over. The quality of the OceanBrake cones looks quite good. Do you know what the total weight will be for your complete system less the anchor or whatever weight you will attach to the tail? Also, as the OceanBrake website is down, what it the cost of their cones?
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Old 25-04-2020, 08:38   #6
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
The only weight difference should be in the buoyancy of the line, and I don’t think it’s really that much, 8 lbs should be plenty.

And the Dyneema will have less profile drag through the water.


Recovery of Dyneema rode can be a challenge. There is some interesting discussion of tested solutions on AAC/Morgans Cloud.
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Old 25-04-2020, 12:09   #7
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

I would suggest you ponder the loads placed on the attachment points to the boat.

Dyneema has almost zero stretch and could shock load the attachment points. Whereas a line with more stretch would ease the load onto the attachment points.

Perhaps reading of the USCG study or other studies would be useful.
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Old 25-04-2020, 12:39   #8
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
I would suggest you ponder the loads placed on the attachment points to the boat.

Dyneema has almost zero stretch and could shock load the attachment points. Whereas a line with more stretch would ease the load onto the attachment points.

Perhaps reading of the USCG study or other studies would be useful.

This is absolutely NOT true. Refer to the USCG data about the JSD and the Morgan’s Cloud site for correct information.

To paraphrase, the whole point of a JSD is to progressively involve more cones to increase the load; there is no shock loading in the system. The only exception is if the boat yaws and then the loading and unloading of the individual bridle legs can cause shock loads; but even these shock loads are a fraction of the total load.

Arguably, non-stretch line is better due to not storing any energy in the rode.
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Old 25-04-2020, 12:48   #9
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
And the Dyneema will have less profile drag through the water.


Recovery of Dyneema rode can be a challenge. There is some interesting discussion of tested solutions on AAC/Morgans Cloud.

I think the recovery issues, assuming you have a straight lead from a primary winch to the stern of your boat, only applies to a monohull with relatively short bridle legs and needing the main ride line to be pulled up to the primary winch with the bridle legs removed.

Our bridle legs are 18m each so can easily reach our primary winch. At that point the ride gets wound around the winch and winched in.

In accord with the discussions on the Morgan’s Cloud site we will have a retrieval line spliced to the bridle/leader connection and long enough to reach the winch. The retrieval line will be lightly zip tied to one bridle leg so it doesn’t flop around; winching the retrieval line will break the zip ties. Alternatively we could use Velcro tabs or even just wool - need to experiment.
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Old 25-04-2020, 12:50   #10
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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And the Dyneema will have less profile drag through the water.
Is this seen as an advantage? I thought the purpose of a drogue was to create drag.
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Old 25-04-2020, 13:07   #11
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Is this seen as an advantage? I thought the purpose of a drogue was to create drag.

I should have been more clear. As the rope goes sideways through the water, trying to sink in the lulls, skinny rope will create less drag that resists sinking.


The the rope drag when pulled in line during wave strikes is less than 1% of the total,basically irrelevant. All of the active drag is produced by the cones.


Yes, polyester has some advantages. So does Dyneema (better fatigue and chafe resistance, more compact). Don Jordan was asked about using Dyneema, and as I recall he replied that he would have like to have investigated it, and that if it made the drogues more practical, it was probably a good thing. I believe he would have investigated Dyneema had it been available at the time. The design difference would have been subtle, at most, and we are learning them through experience.


His invention was brilliant, but let's remember that all of the practical experience has come since then. Learning from real storm experiences is a slow and painful process.
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Old 25-04-2020, 13:34   #12
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by dougweibel View Post
Nice work!



My wife and I assembled a JSD from using cones from a SailRite kit a few years ago for our last boat which we have brought along to our new boat although it is not really set up right for the new boat. It needs more cones and a wider bridle as the new boat is a cat. With the bulk of the double braid polyester moving the thing around is like wrestling with a loaded body bag. I've been considering either reusing the cones and changing all the lines to dyneema or just selling it and starting over. The quality of the OceanBrake cones looks quite good. Do you know what the total weight will be for your complete system less the anchor or whatever weight you will attach to the tail? Also, as the OceanBrake website is down, what it the cost of their cones?

The Ocean Brake cones are very nice, with sewn bindings front and back and a relatively heavy rip stop polyester. Apparently they have a new design that is slightly different and one assumes better.

We bought the cones from Ocean Brake in April 2018 and paid £2.76 each (£430.56 for the 156 cones) and £75.55 to ship to New Zealand. Cost was ex VAT. I have no idea what the price is now, but it’s a damn sight less than the materials and labour to make the cones yourself.

We bought the Dyneema (actually Acera Amundsen) rode from Greenline Fishing Gear in Denmark in May 2019. We bought 43m 8mm tail (€2.08/m), 34m 10mm first (€2.78/m), and 88m 12mm (€3.72/m) for leader and bridle legs. The ex VAT total cost was €665.32, including €154.00 for shipping to New Zealand. This was less than 1/2 of the cost for equivalent line bought from the least expensive supplier in New Zealand (Chains Ropes and Anchors, in Auckland). The Amundsen is yellow and quite stiff, especially in the larger sizes.

Note that I just bought almost 200m of 10mm Acera Amundsen for shorelines from Greenline Fishing and the price was the same as a year ago.

There was another $100.00 NZD for the 12mm SK78 Dyneema for the two high strength soft shackles I made.

We paid $1975.00 NZD to a local boat builder to make and install two fibreglass reinforcement plates. These were bonded to the hull and hull deck joint flange (we have a heavy aluminium toe rail running along the top of the hull deck joint flange). These plates are 1.2m long and 0.2m wide and turn the aft end of the toe rails into chain plates for the JSD.

Total weight, including the 2x 18m bridle lines and the soft shackles used to attach them to our chainplates, is 13.5kg. It fits into a box 46cm/18” high and 35.5cm/14” square. We’re going to transform one of our old sail bags into a launch bag.

We’re going to use a length of chain hard shackled into shorter loops and hard shackles to the hard thimble spliced into the end of the tail.
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Old 25-04-2020, 17:18   #13
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

@fxykty:

Seaworthy Lass made one for her and noelex's new boat, using the acera. A PM to noelex77 might receive an informative response.

Also, there is this thread on the subject: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-190315-2.html

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Old 25-04-2020, 20:02   #14
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

I bought a JSD with dyneema line in the first half of the JSD. I tested it, deploying in moderate conditions to see what recovery would be like. My experience was as follows:
1. Deploying the JSD was very easy and the deceleration pressure on the boat as it caught was very nice and gentle. Don’t worry about that, no aggressive jerks as suggested above.
2. Once deployed it smoothed the motion of the boat beautifully. It wasn’t storm conditions so that’s something I cannot attest to, but in 25knots the boat slowed to 2 knots and I have a lot of freeboard.
3. Recovery of the dyneema part was really hard because it slips in the winch. I was trying to tie rolling hitches to the line but they slipped too. So afterwards I tied knots in the dyneema at regular intervals so that the dyneema can be hauled in with lines attached.

Hope this helps.

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Old 25-04-2020, 20:23   #15
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Re: hauling a jsd back in. Would there be any point in having a thin line and float on the end of it, such that you could circle round and pick it up then retrieve the jsd from the far end?
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