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Old 13-01-2021, 10:18   #121
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

OceanBrake is weaving in some short lines in-between the Drogues to assist in retrieval. If you order one with Dyneema, the line is quite slippery and the spliced in lines give you something to pull on.

I haven't seen what this looks like. Does anyone have pictures of a recently purchased OceanBrake JSD with Dyneema lines?
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Old 13-01-2021, 13:26   #122
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by At Peace View Post
Recovery of the JSD is the most demanding part of using one. I look at it as a positive! This means I have survived the storm and I want it back on board for the next time I in conditions where I need it. 1) Pull some in, 2)take a break, repeat until you have it all on deck, what's your hurry? You just survived what was probably a fierce storm.
Some good reading from Ocean Brake: https://www.oceanbrake.com/launch-and-recovery

The claims made in the sales link regarding parachute anchor supporters is provably false. Ironically, many of the changes made to the JSD instructions by this company, in our opinion, are a result of research published by an independent contractor that we, the US Navy, Coast Guard, and NASA are currently working with. These experienced government organizations have chosen not to use the JSD, because it doesn’t stabilize their vessels as well as other devices.

The JSD, Para-Anchor, and speed-limiting drogues all have different purposes. To make a claim that one device is the Holy Grail is suspect.
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Old 14-01-2021, 10:22   #123
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by Fi2010 View Post
The claims made in the sales link regarding parachute anchor supporters is provably false. Ironically, many of the changes made to the JSD instructions by this company, in our opinion, are a result of research published by an independent contractor that we, the US Navy, Coast Guard, and NASA are currently working with. These experienced government organizations have chosen not to use the JSD, because it doesn’t stabilize their vessels as well as other devices.

The JSD, Para-Anchor, and speed-limiting drogues all have different purposes. To make a claim that one device is the Holy Grail is suspect.
If you could summarize drogue vs purpose I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Are there any published reports available that we can read?
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Old 14-01-2021, 13:00   #124
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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If you could summarize drogue vs purpose I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Are there any published reports available that we can read?

This is an effort to simplify.

It really depends on how much you want to slow your vessel down. A little, medium reduction in drift speed or a lot. We would classify speed-limiting drogues as a little, a JSD as medium to a lot, and the para-anchor as a lot.

Boat design, sail balance, use of weight or no weight; all factor into the amount of speed reduction. Use of Dyneema or Spectra causes an increase in drift speed, compared to rodes like Dacron or Nylon, which create more drag.

What’s important is to determine what tactic you’re comfortable with. Keeping the boat moving or stopping it with the bow or stern facing the seas. Flat transom boats don’t fare well with the weather pounding on their stern. Where canoe stern boats can handle rough seas on both ends.
Speed-limiting drogues keep the boat moving so you can avoid a lee shore, get out of a shipping lane, or in dealing with waves coming from more than one direction. The speed-limiting drogues can also be used for emergency steering and towing.

The JSD and Para-Anchor are designed to dramatically slow a boat’s drift so you can go down below and wait out the storm. The JSD presents the stern to the weather and the Para-Anchor keeps the bow facing the seas. If proper Rode Tension Methods are used, (rode with less stretch, weight, use of motor, sail balance, shorter rodes deployed) then it’s highly unlikely your boat will fall backwards (para-anhcor) or forward (JSD).

The only issue becomes sizing. Does the size of your equipment slow you down too much or not enough? Too much, then your boat is pooped at the stern or swamped at the bow. The question to ask yourself is “can my boat handle cockpit or bow flooding?” If not, then you might consider changing storm tactics.

Not enough holding power for the JSD and Para-Anchor seems to be less relevant if you adhere to the Constant Rode Tension Methodology. Just faster drifting.

The person we work with has been conducting open Ocean testing of drag devices since 1995. Because he’s the most experienced expert in this field, he works with NASA and the US Navies mentioned. Forum rules prohibit us from linking or mentioning any reports, because of our association with this expert. Additionally, we’re not permitted to mention his name.

Current testing, which we think is producing some really interesting results, hasn’t been published yet by the government or by our expert. However, any information that isn’t classified or violates ITAR will hopefully be published at the end of this year or beginning of 2022. Regardless, we believe we’ve summarized the general results of the reports already available to the public. Both by our organization and others.
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Old 14-01-2021, 15:28   #125
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fi2010 View Post
This is an effort to simplify.

It really depends on how much you want to slow your vessel down. A little, medium reduction in drift speed or a lot. We would classify speed-limiting drogues as a little, a JSD as medium to a lot, and the para-anchor as a lot.

Boat design, sail balance, use of weight or no weight; all factor into the amount of speed reduction. Use of Dyneema or Spectra causes an increase in drift speed, compared to rodes like Dacron or Nylon, which create more drag.

What’s important is to determine what tactic you’re comfortable with. Keeping the boat moving or stopping it with the bow or stern facing the seas. Flat transom boats don’t fare well with the weather pounding on their stern. Where canoe stern boats can handle rough seas on both ends.
Speed-limiting drogues keep the boat moving so you can avoid a lee shore, get out of a shipping lane, or in dealing with waves coming from more than one direction. The speed-limiting drogues can also be used for emergency steering and towing.

The JSD and Para-Anchor are designed to dramatically slow a boat’s drift so you can go down below and wait out the storm. The JSD presents the stern to the weather and the Para-Anchor keeps the bow facing the seas. If proper Rode Tension Methods are used, (rode with less stretch, weight, use of motor, sail balance, shorter rodes deployed) then it’s highly unlikely your boat will fall backwards (para-anhcor) or forward (JSD).

The only issue becomes sizing. Does the size of your equipment slow you down too much or not enough? Too much, then your boat is pooped at the stern or swamped at the bow. The question to ask yourself is “can my boat handle cockpit or bow flooding?” If not, then you might consider changing storm tactics.

Not enough holding power for the JSD and Para-Anchor seems to be less relevant if you adhere to the Constant Rode Tension Methodology. Just faster drifting.

The person we work with has been conducting open Ocean testing of drag devices since 1995. Because he’s the most experienced expert in this field, he works with NASA and the US Navies mentioned. Forum rules prohibit us from linking or mentioning any reports, because of our association with this expert. Additionally, we’re not permitted to mention his name.

Current testing, which we think is producing some really interesting results, hasn’t been published yet by the government or by our expert. However, any information that isn’t classified or violates ITAR will hopefully be published at the end of this year or beginning of 2022. Regardless, we believe we’ve summarized the general results of the reports already available to the public. Both by our organization and others.

Thanks very much, this information is much appreciated and well done keeping it factual without judgements.

I see your website has older reports. I’m looking forward to seeing reports and/or summaries for the current testing. Thanks!
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Old 14-01-2021, 16:41   #126
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

NASA and the US Navy also have reports online. They can sometimes be a challenge to find, since links tend to change with these organizations.

We've had a new website built with new information, but have not uploaded it yet. Us small companies can take a long time to make updates. Especially, when transferring data from an old program to a new one. Our YouTube channel is updated more frequently. Several videos will be added this summer.
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Old 14-01-2021, 20:11   #127
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by Fi2010 View Post
NASA and the US Navy also have reports online. They can sometimes be a challenge to find, since links tend to change with these organizations.

We've had a new website built with new information, but have not uploaded it yet. Us small companies can take a long time to make updates. Especially, when transferring data from an old program to a new one. Our YouTube channel is updated more frequently. Several videos will be added this summer.
While I am always open to new technology, I am wondering why you don’t reference the findings of the USCG where there was extensive testing done on JSD, parachute, and cone type “speed limiting drogues” even sea anchors.
One of many conclusions of USCG’s published report is “The series drogue provides significant advantages over a cone or parachute type drogue”.
There is a lot of good information and I recommend anyone who is considering a storm survival kit, review this. https://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/p...uardreport.pdf

There has been improvements to the JSD for more durability with the materials used and even using dyneema which is lighter and stronger. The design of the JSD has not changed, it is still the same as Jim Jordan designed it.

If more information is needed, read some reports from users that survived storms using various drogues and sea anchors. You can even scroll down the left side and filter for a boat similar to yours and for the different drogues, anchors, etc.
https://dragdevicedb.com/drogues

In my opinion, the JSD is a very cheap insurance policy.
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Old 14-01-2021, 20:58   #128
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

The quote you chose was an opinion of the author, who also admitted in the 1987 report; how the JSD had the highest failure rate over the cone drogue and cone sea anchor. The para-anchor was not tested. However, when weight was added to the JSD it performed as well as the cone drogue and cone sea anchor. We’ve already published a setting the record straight article regarding these details. The US Coast Guard reviewed our article and determined it was accurate.

Lighter and stronger isn’t necessarily better. Dyneema and Spectra can bunch up, causing shock loading, and occasional tangles. The lighter rope also has less drag. We’ve mentioned this in many posts. This applies to the para-anchors and storm drogues equally.

Our company has mostly been censored from the DDDB database. This organization is one of our competitors, which might explain why. However, we still recommend the book. It’s always a good idea to learn from others experiences or viewpoints. They might not always be accurate, but it gets the mind thinking anyway.
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Old 14-01-2021, 22:13   #129
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

The author being the U.S. Coast Guard and in the official report on page 61 under section "7.0 Conclusion #3" is where I got the quote,
“The series drogue provides significant advantages over a cone or parachute type drogue”.

The drogue that was tested was one of the first of Jim Jordan's design and it has since been improved with heavier material for the cones and improved stitching. Jordan even recognized the inferior materials used initially and said he had wished dyneema was readily available and saw its advantage. Again, the initial design has not changed, just the materials made available through technology advances.

It also says in the report that there is no shock loading and explains why. Even people who have actually used the JSD in a severe storm say there is no shock loading, in fact many reported a smooth & gradual deceleration creating a very comfortable ride were one could get some sleep.

I would like to read the reports on your system, can you share the links?
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Old 15-01-2021, 03:40   #130
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Hi, have been following the thread and comments made with interest. Firstly, I am a fan of the JSD, have one, but have never had to deploy it yet - thankfully.

One of the articles I read a few years ago mentioned that no yacht had been lost using a JSD.

However, a few years ago, a round the world single handed race for classic shaped yachts reported that one competitor had, I think, pitchpolled while using a JSD in the southern ocean? I seem to remember it was an Endurance class design.

This stuck in my memory when I read it, as in the late 80s I lost my Endurance 35 returning from Bermuda to the UK. In my case, the yacht was running under bare poles in severe weather (no wind instruments) doing about 4kts (no speed log fitted then) happily steering by Aries windvane. She fell off the top of a spike of crossing wave trains, which were breaking and flopping in any direction. The boat free fell, and landed on the doghouse, removing both masts, and all but the flush foredeck area. The keel brought her upright, almost full of water, with about a foot of freeboard remaining. Hours of bailing by hand followed. In hindsight, I do not believe a JSD, or indeed any type of sea anchor, could have prevented this, had we had one then. She was actually lost and sunk about 18 hours later, by a passing freighter, during several attempts to take us off the drifting vessel. Fortunately, proving successful.

Is anyone familiar with the more recent loss, and have the detailed circumstances been documented? It would certainly be of interest to know what went wrong in that case... and may help use of JSD for others?
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Old 15-01-2021, 04:47   #131
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

[I would like to read the reports on your system, can you share the links?]


AtPeace,


Our JSD setting the record straight article, which is a more recent update compared to the 1987 report, was accepted by the US Coast Guard as accurate. The article was written to show the omissions of facts regarding the JSD in a Yachting World article. These facts are commonly omitted in forum posts as well. The article does provide new information and solutions that can help out every type of drag device.

Every video on YouTube demonstrating the JSD in use during sloppy weather shows the bridle going slack and then becoming taut. This is shock loading. It’s why many comments on this forum regarding JSD breakage we feel is a result of shock loading. We have offered many solutions to help out, which is not necessarily a complete fix.

As pointed out in our post, forum rules prohibit us from linking to our own research no matter how good it may or may not be. However, other forum members are permitted to post our information. If you can figure out our YouTube channel, then check out the drogue comparison. The link is in the comments and description of the video.
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Old 16-01-2021, 15:57   #132
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by pk999 View Post
Hi, have been following the thread and comments made with interest. Firstly, I am a fan of the JSD, have one, but have never had to deploy it yet - thankfully.

One of the articles I read a few years ago mentioned that no yacht had been lost using a JSD.

However, a few years ago, a round the world single handed race for classic shaped yachts reported that one competitor had, I think, pitchpolled while using a JSD in the southern ocean? I seem to remember it was an Endurance class design.

This stuck in my memory when I read it, as in the late 80s I lost my Endurance 35 returning from Bermuda to the UK. In my case, the yacht was running under bare poles in severe weather (no wind instruments) doing about 4kts (no speed log fitted then) happily steering by Aries windvane. She fell off the top of a spike of crossing wave trains, which were breaking and flopping in any direction. The boat free fell, and landed on the doghouse, removing both masts, and all but the flush foredeck area. The keel brought her upright, almost full of water, with about a foot of freeboard remaining. Hours of bailing by hand followed. In hindsight, I do not believe a JSD, or indeed any type of sea anchor, could have prevented this, had we had one then. She was actually lost and sunk about 18 hours later, by a passing freighter, during several attempts to take us off the drifting vessel. Fortunately, proving successful.

Is anyone familiar with the more recent loss, and have the detailed circumstances been documented? It would certainly be of interest to know what went wrong in that case... and may help use of JSD for others?
pk, I believe what you are referring to was the pitchpole in the Southern Ocean of Susie Goodall in the 2018 Golden Globe race.

Yes, the circumstances have been documented and well discussed over at morganscloud.com under the Storm Tactics section. Fyi, if you are interested in detailed and well experienced discussion of all things cruising, that's the place to look, all for the price of a coffee per month. I think it's the best resource on the net, but that's just because I haven't found anything that approaches it.

The short story is that the JSD leader was attached to the bridle legs using a knot. This weakened the system at that junction, and the rode broke at the knot when Susie's boat was picked up by an enormous wave. We now know how to avoid such mistakes, what are the better materials, and how to construct the best JSD possible, which is all detailed at the above mentioned site. These learnings have been adopted by JSD manufacturers.
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Old 16-01-2021, 16:31   #133
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

"Every video on YouTube demonstrating the JSD in use during sloppy weather shows the bridle going slack and then becoming taut. This is shock loading. It’s why many comments on this forum regarding JSD breakage we feel is a result of shock loading. We have offered many solutions to help out, which is not necessarily a complete fix.


I think it's worth pointing out that the comment/opinion that the JSD suffers from "shock loading" misses the mark. I hesitate to suggest that the poster is aware of this and makes the comment more out of commercial self interest, than an interest in objective analysis of the JSD.

I hope I am wrong about that, & apologise in advance if they have been unaware of what constitutes shock loading. However, they are in the business of manufacturing drogue & parachute drag devices, and have ready access to the expertise of Zac ( which they refer to frequently), so I believe they should be well aware of the difference between a damaging level of shock loading, and the progressive tightening of the bridle arms of a JSD. Shock loading implies a sudden application of force, does it not?

Now there have been reported cases of damage caused by the bridle arm(s) getting tangled in steering vanes and then the steering vane is damaged by the tightening bridle, but that is a different matter to the boat experiencing sudden "shock loading". The JSD and bridle experience cyclical tightening as the boat is retrained from surfing down the face of a wave and is then in the trough, but the size and type of line used in the construction take this into account. The line is not "shock loaded", unless someone is silly enough to not use the prescribed weight at the end of the JSD to maintain drogue immersion deep in the water column.

No-one I am aware of has reported what could be considered "shock loads" when using a JSD, even under Southern Ocean storm conditions. Quite the opposite, they report a progressive slowing of the boat as the JSD cones increase resistance gradually, not suddenly, as the boat begins to accelerate down the wave face.

Apologies to the poster to being a bit contentious, but have I misconstrued your statement?
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Old 16-01-2021, 17:13   #134
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
pk, I believe what you are referring to was the pitchpole in the Southern Ocean of Susie Goodall in the 2018 Golden Globe race.

Yes, the circumstances have been documented and well discussed over at morganscloud.com under the Storm Tactics section. Fyi, if you are interested in detailed and well experienced discussion of all things cruising, that's the place to look, all for the price of a coffee per month. I think it's the best resource on the net, but that's just because I haven't found anything that approaches it.

The short story is that the JSD leader was attached to the bridle legs using a knot. This weakened the system at that junction, and the rode broke at the knot when Susie's boat was picked up by an enormous wave. We now know how to avoid such mistakes, what are the better materials, and how to construct the best JSD possible, which is all detailed at the above mentioned site. These learnings have been adopted by JSD manufacturers.


Cruisers Forum has far more details related to all things cruising than Morganscloud and we don’t have to pay any fees. Morganscloud also admitted to accepting advertising dollars from JSD promoters. This might explain why information related to competing equipment like para-anchors and speed-limiting drogues are omitted.

At least on Cruisers Forum we can read differing opinions from novice to experienced sailors. We can occasionally receive an opinion from the manufacturer themselves. Manufacturers should be the most experienced in understanding how to use their equipment. Not just drag device manufacturers, but all manufacturers.

The knot setup used to form the JSD bridle has been suggested by the JSD suppliers since the beginning. Are you sure JSD suppliers didn’t figure out there was a problem with their knot/bridle recommendation until 2018?

If what you’re saying is accurate, then technically a voluntary recall on all JSDs equipped with a bridle should be considered. Bridles put together by the supplier. We’ve only heard of one speed-limiting drogue that ever had a voluntary product recall. The company either refunded money or replaced the drogue.
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Old 16-01-2021, 18:04   #135
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
"Every video on YouTube demonstrating the JSD in use during sloppy weather shows the bridle going slack and then becoming taut. This is shock loading. It’s why many comments on this forum regarding JSD breakage we feel is a result of shock loading. We have offered many solutions to help out, which is not necessarily a complete fix.


I think it's worth pointing out that the comment/opinion that the JSD suffers from "shock loading" misses the mark. I hesitate to suggest that the poster is aware of this and makes the comment more out of commercial self interest, than an interest in objective analysis of the JSD.

I hope I am wrong about that, & apologise in advance if they have been unaware of what constitutes shock loading. However, they are in the business of manufacturing drogue & parachute drag devices, and have ready access to the expertise of Zac ( which they refer to frequently), so I believe they should be well aware of the difference between a damaging level of shock loading, and the progressive tightening of the bridle arms of a JSD. Shock loading implies a sudden application of force, does it not?

Now there have been reported cases of damage caused by the bridle arm(s) getting tangled in steering vanes and then the steering vane is damaged by the tightening bridle, but that is a different matter to the boat experiencing sudden "shock loading". The JSD and bridle experience cyclical tightening as the boat is retrained from surfing down the face of a wave and is then in the trough, but the size and type of line used in the construction take this into account. The line is not "shock loaded", unless someone is silly enough to not use the prescribed weight at the end of the JSD to maintain drogue immersion deep in the water column.

No-one I am aware of has reported what could be considered "shock loads" when using a JSD, even under Southern Ocean storm conditions. Quite the opposite, they report a progressive slowing of the boat as the JSD cones increase resistance gradually, not suddenly, as the boat begins to accelerate down the wave face.

Apologies to the poster to being a bit contentious, but have I misconstrued your statement?

Your comment about shock loading only occurring with the JSD is inaccurate. We’ve made it obvious in numerous posts, articles, and YouTube videos that shock loading is the number one problem for all drag devices.

Please realize we’re trying to simplify things by avoiding getting too technical. This way everyone can more easily understand the problems and solutions. The Constant Rode Tension Methodology, for example, was purposely put together to be simple for sailors to remember. “Use weight placement, rode with less stretch, shorter rode lengths, motor or sail power to increase loading on rode, etc...” The Rode Tension solutions apply equally to all drag devices.

Cyclical or sudden shock loading eventually produces the same results. Sudden shock loading only causes breakage faster.

And yes, we have access to an experienced inventor of drag devices. He’s the one that figured out what the deployment problems were regarding the JSD, Para-Anchor, and Speed-Limiting drogue. It’s one of the reasons he works with NASA and our Navies amongst other organizations. His job is to figure out problems and find a solution to insure a successful mission. Not only to keep our astronauts and military safe, but to make sure sailors survive the storm; regardless of the product they choose to use.
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