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Old 03-05-2020, 14:57   #61
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Just for transparency...


Fi2020 represents Fiorentino, the makers of the Shark and Para-Anchor. Zack is their technical guy.

A moderator changed the name from Fiorentino to fi2010. We figured fi is short for Fiorentino and 2010 is when we opened our account, so we kept the moderator’s name choice.

Our profile is transparent. Service provider... Para-Anchor & Storm Drogue Manufacturer.

Zack is an independent contractor who works with Fiorentino and several other companies not associated with Fiorentino.
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Old 03-05-2020, 15:47   #62
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

I am doing my jsd from scratch. The cones are nylon not polyester. The cone straps as well. The bindings are sewed after the the cone is ready, so the binding holds the connection point. There is no need for binding at the rear.
I am using spectra rope with thimbles to prevent chaff.

Lots of work, but it is safety and the only person I trust is myself.
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Old 03-05-2020, 15:54   #63
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
The designer specified heavy polyester lines due to less stretch than the nylon equivalents.
fxykty,

Can you give me a source for the information that Don Jordan specified polyester? Others have given me a link to later comments that endorsed Spectra (Dyneema, HMWPE). I've not seen polyester (Dacron, Terylene) mentioned explicitly.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tml#post215527 post #6

Bill
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Old 03-05-2020, 16:38   #64
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Just for transparency...


Fi2020 represents Fiorentino, the makers of the Shark and Para-Anchor. Zack is their technical guy.
They also live in an alternate reality.
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Old 03-05-2020, 17:25   #65
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Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by wsmurdoch View Post
fxykty,



Can you give me a source for the information that Don Jordan specified polyester? Others have given me a link to later comments that endorsed Spectra (Dyneema, HMWPE). I've not seen polyester (Dacron, Terylene) mentioned explicitly.



https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tml#post215527 post #6



Bill

Don Jordan agreed that low-stretch rodes are suitable in place of the originally specified double braid nylon (there are references to this data emend in the URLs below). There is no specific reference to replacing nylon with polyester in the context of JSDs AFAIK, but plenty of other examples in discussions about anchor rodes, snubber lines, mooring lines, etc that discuss swapping polyester for nylon.

In practice:
- www.oceanbrake.com sell their completed JSDs with double braid polyester.
- http://seriesdrogue.com sell their completed JSDs with unspecified “double braid” line. Elsewhere on the site they refer to using polyester double braid.
- http://acesails.com/ sells completed JSD with double braid nylon rode.

I’m not sure if there are other sellers of completed JSDs.
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Old 03-05-2020, 17:41   #66
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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The reports that do not describe large breaking waves inundating their cockpits is because the waves weren't large, breaking and inundating the cockpit.

Regarding my experience of over 35 years at sea in multiple different monohulls in storms where the waves were not only breaking into the cockpit, but washing the entire length of the boat with green water. I am not a theorist, I speak from actual experience. In the survival storms that I was caught out in there were waves that I would never turn my stern to. Boats are not designed to take that kind of continuous punishment on the stern for that length of time.



I have used and own a well-used Galerider, A Fiorintino Para-Anchor, and a lesser used JSD. The Gale Rider was the least effective and was only used sparingly in lighterish conditions as well as the Jordan Series. They were used in the rare occasion where we opted to run before the storm because survival conditions hadn't occurred and weren't expected and we had a decent crew to man the helm watches. Once true survival conditions were forecasted or I was alone, I opted to Heave-to "properly" and prepare the Sea Anchor at the bow. Fatigue is one of the deadliest factors in most of these situations.


I have sailed through some incredible storms when I was younger. I work very hard to avoid them at all costs these days. However, I do know what to do in the various conditions that occur in these situations from years of trial and error about what works and what will get you killed. My boat is set up accordingly with the proper equipment.



Too many theories do not survive the first few hours of a serous blow. It makes me wonder how many people have been killed by them?



Saying that I am making incorrect statements without reference is quite insulting and unfounded. I wish you well.


I'm going to find something constructive to do with my time.

You’ve provided your experience, so we can see that you’re writing from your own experience. Awesome, thanks. I was not intending to be insulting and was only unfounded through not knowing your circumstances. I apologise for that.

The characterisation of “incorrect” comes from your description of the JSD being an active mode that requires steering and attention. That is directly contrary to all references about how a JSD behaves. Can you please describe your JSD and the displacement of your boat so that we can figure out why you had the experiences that you did with the JSD?

http://dragdevicedb.com/drogues scroll down to the Jordan Series Drogue section about half way down the page.
http://seriesdrogue.com/designersnotes/
http://jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_1.htm
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Old 03-05-2020, 22:10   #67
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Boatguy: Boat Was an Alberg 35. Seas were 4- 5 meters wind 35-45Kts . fatigue was the biggest problem. We were trying to go south and had a Southey gale. So better than bashing to go backwards. I was using an 18 foot Para Tech sea anchor. And I didn’t mean that is was better or smoother than being anchored, but less jerk and swing than a real bad anchorage.
I found that I needed to put out a good 120 meters of rode to make it reasonable. the Alberg is narrow beam and fine entry so was wet but still Able to get a few hrs rest. In some ways, the pitching wasn’t as bad as a bad an anchorage with short heavy chop. As the waves were further apart than an anchorage where pitching with this short water lined boat with overhangs could get real bad. This was nearly 35 yrs ago and the only time that I used it. I did later on carry it on my trawler. It could have come in very handy in case of mechanical failure. Of course dead in the water, beam on in a trawler could be very uncomfortable to down right dangerous in not so terrible conditions.
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Old 04-05-2020, 06:18   #68
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Good info, thanks. 18' is quite big for an Alberg 35 based on manufacturers sizing. That's what I have on my 34' cat. Certainly my boat can't take green water washing the length of the deck from the stern! As Donald described. Fortunately, with modern forecasting that can hopefully be entirely avoided.

I also have a tire drogue which I reckon is needed in 35-45 knots on my boat. At that point I think it would still be reasonable to launch the sea anchor from the bow.

Hopefully able to make port prior to that with the drogue having slowed things down to a safe speed. 15+ knots down waves gets to be a problem after the first 48 or so hours I find.
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Old 04-05-2020, 09:43   #69
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

two quick comments:

(1) You don't want much if any downward angle on the stern drag device rode (either series or single element). You want the stern to be able to lift easily and unhindered to waves. A downward rode angle holds it down. So . . . don't go overboard on weights.

(2) On a series drogue, you want a decently long 'leader' before the first cones, so that the first cones are some way back from the boat. The cone failures on series drogues were (majority) flutter failures (not shock loading failures). There is quite a bit of turbulence behind the vessel, and if the first cones are close to the boat they will both be in that turbulence and be lifted in and out of the water as load comes on and off (which is undesirable, you dont want decreasing drag as load comes on)

These two factors are pretty critical in truly large deep ocean waves, but don't become apparent in smaller protected and/or gale sort of conditions.
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Old 07-06-2020, 14:26   #70
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Received a few new cones from Ocean Brake. They also sent a slightly longer bent wire ‘Tape Insertion Tool’.

The new cones are made of a thicker fabric (feels more like polyester, while the original cones are vinyl I think), thicker bindings, and much thicker tapes. Here are the new and original cones.

Click image for larger version

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I suppose the change in cone design is due to reports of cone damage, though I haven’t heard that about the original Ocean Brake cones.
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Old 07-06-2020, 18:05   #71
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Thank you for the info. I suppose when dealing with life-saving devices meant to last through storms up to and including hurricane strength, stronger is always better. It is hard to imagine the forces generated on a single small cone being sufficient to rip the original tapes, but it may have happened (or nearly happened) at least once, for them to make the change.
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Old 07-06-2020, 20:21   #72
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by southatlantic View Post
It is hard to imagine the forces generated on a single small cone being sufficient to rip the original tapes.
It happens when stretchy line is used. Boat gets picked up by a wave and flung. As the line stretches the cones closest to the boat are torn through the water at much greater speed than the ones further back.
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Old 08-06-2020, 02:40   #73
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Very interesting thread on JSD issues.

One thought occurs to me: when Jordan designed the series drogues and came up with the stresses for rope diameter and attachment points, bridles, number of cones needed etc. boats were significantly different in design to modern yachts. Typically, previous monohull designs had much narrower transoms, more overhangs at bow and stern, and relatively heavier displacement. Modern designs tend to have much broader transoms with minimal overhangs (look at any marina and view the ever increasing beam on the sterns). While a broader stern with less overhang may lift quicker to following waves, the shock loadings on bigger slab surfaces from breaking waves may be much larger?

To summarise, are the original JSD design calcs. still relevant for modern boat shapes? Any thoughts?
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:52   #74
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

From the reports when originally testing the JSD and the subsequent designer’s notes it looks like a JSD allows the boat to initially move with the breaking wave as the catenary reduces and drag increases, then slows the boat and pulls it back over the top of the wave before it starts to surf.

Usage reports don’t suggest that there are immense wave strikes. They do report waves making their way onto aft decks and into the cockpit, but not with a lot of force.

It’s a good point though. While there’s certainly more hull surface in modern sterns the strength of the hull itself should be plenty. It’s the binnacles and rail mounted BBQ and outboard motor and solar panel arch, etc, that’s at risk.
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Old 08-06-2020, 13:48   #75
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Ocean Brake uses two different materials for the cones.

The cones for the nylon drogues are made from a 7oz polyester with a synthetic backing

The new cones, for HMPE drogues are made from Duradon® Light, which is a roughly 12oz cloth made by British Millerain
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