Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

[JPA Cate]

Had some friends a while back, with a crab crusher type boat, who deployed their JSD from the bow, to aid in being hove to for the night. It held the boat still, but it was in the EAC (East Australia Current), and so they woke up 30 n. mi. south of where they had been. No problems getting the drogue back in, though.

However, fxykty is correct, they are normally deployed from the stern, on a bridle.

Ann

[pk999]

Hi, many years ago I researched Jordan Drogues, and from memory, the original spec. recommended three strand nylon warps, reducing in diameter towards the end chutes and chain weight. The reason being, to allow maximum stretch to reduce shock loadings onto the bridle and attachment points to the boat. Dyneema will be the worst option to allow stretch (as well as being considerably more expensive). The only benefit I can think of is reduced size when packed before deployment. If conditions are bad enough to deploy, reducing shock loadings onto the boat attachment points would be high on my list of priorities (As well as ensuring the washboards are tough enough to withstand occasional breaking waves). Bare in mind that the entire load may be on one or other of the attachment points, even using a bridle. Suggest you check the original design brief, prior to going the Dyneema route?

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by pk999

Hi, many years ago I researched Jordan Drogues, and from memory, the original spec. recommended three strand nylon warps, reducing in diameter towards the end chutes and chain weight. The reason being, to allow maximum stretch to reduce shock loadings onto the bridle and attachment points to the boat. Dyneema will be the worst option to allow stretch (as well as being considerably more expensive). The only benefit I can think of is reduced size when packed before deployment. If conditions are bad enough to deploy, reducing shock loadings onto the boat attachment points would be high on my list of priorities (As well as ensuring the washboards are tough enough to withstand occasional breaking waves). Bare in mind that the entire load may be on one or other of the attachment points, even using a bridle. Suggest you check the original design brief, prior to going the Dyneema route?

See #8, #27, #32

This thread is continuation/distillation of prior threads discussing the use of Dyneema (including what Jordan would've thought)

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...216499-41.html
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-190315.html

[Bigmarv]

agree dyneema is suitable. i thought the reason for the decreasing diameters using old-tech rope was just to reduce weight and bulk towards the end as less strength was needed. i would choose dyneema if building one now although i would want to be sure my lead to the winch worked as pulling them in by hand is so hard that you could be waiting for days to do it on slippery rope.

fxykty, i'm interested in these on modern cats. what's your thinking if it gets dirty enough that you have heavy water dumping into the cockpit and hitting the vertical doors to the saloon?

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by quackedo

It was found that trailing a smaller parachute from the stern to act as a drogue instead of a sea anchor had the problem of getting collapsed in larger breaking Seas and becoming useless. That is why the Jordan Drogue was created. Hopefully it wouldn't entirely collapse in a single wave.

This issue is not collapsing, but creating too much drag to slow your boat down. Dependent on sea conditions, if you slow your boat down too much, you can cause cockpit flooding. A problem suffered by the JSD as mentioned in the US Coast Guard report. There are pros and cons with any drag device. Boat design and intended use does factor into the equation.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Ummm, no, stretchy material is not required to absorb loads for a JSD, as has been explained several times earlier in this thread.

Yes, you're correct about using no stretchy material with a JSD.

The concept of not using stretchy materials with storm drogues and para-anchors was first tested by Zack Smith. It’s why we know how important weight distribution is when you use Dyneema or Spectra rodes. The 2019 US Navy test using this type of light weight rode with a para-anchor proved successful. Weight distribution turned out to be a key factor to success.

Weight distribution is also required for stretchy rodes like nylon. Especially if your system is not adjustable. Because nylon absorbs water and is heavier you might find you need less weight than when you deploy Dyneema or Spectra. As mentioned in many published reports and videos.

[Doek]

Originally Posted by fxykty

A JSD is not an active drogue; you’re thinking of speed-limiting single element drogues like the Shark or Galerider or similar. Unlike those, after deploying a JSD you lock your rudder(s) and go below as the boat meanders along at 2 knots. Not unlike, though a bit faster, than lying to a sea anchor.




Ummm, no, stretchy material is not required to absorb loads for a JSD, as has been explained several times earlier in this thread.

Wow! Be very careful about what you write here. While testing of new materials is important and will possibly change things over time, they should be very well vetted before being adopted. Very few people have spent 4 days or more in a survival storm condition and actually have the experience to safely talk about what is needed and what works. Too much of these inputs are theories at best.


When in a storm at sea you have two options:
1) Run before the storm and keep someone active at the helm while taking waves basically on some portion of the stern to keep from broaching, chinese gybe, or knockdown. A drogue will help keep your speed down and help prevent this.

2) Deploy a proper Sea Anchor off the bow and go below to wait it out while occasionally checking for and dealing with chafe. This parks you at sea and is a passive attempt to ride out a storm safely.


One quick note. The drogue allows you to travel with the storm and keeps you in it longer. The sea anchor slows/stops the boat and allows the storm to pass as quickly as possible thus shortening the time you are in the storm.



To suggest that someone would intentionally take waves on any part of the stern while not steering or watching the boat is a very serious mistake.
It would be similar to lying a-hull which has been proven time and time again to be a death sentence.
Boats are made to take waves on the "bow" not the stern. Taking large breaking waves repeatedly on the stern is a terrible idea and would lead to loss of the boat eventually.


Suggesting that "Heavy Jerking Loads" are not an issue is a statement that could only be made by someone that has never rode out huge breaking waves with a drogue or sea anchor deployed. There is a video here in this thread showing loading that finally breaks the Monitor rudder off the boat.

Lastly.



A parachute anchor used as a stern drogue can be easily collapsed by a breaking wave as it passes. This renders it virtually useless and was one of the main reasons that the series drogue was invented in the first place.


People with real extended experience in survival situations and the use of either parachutes or drogues over days in a very stormy sea should be given the most credence here. Experiments or theories have their place, but should be adopted very slowly over proven amounts of time.


There are too many people relatively new to this topic with untested opinions being stated as facts.


Be careful.

[southatlantic]

Originally Posted by fxykty

This is absolutely NOT true. Refer to the USCG data about the JSD and the Morgan’s Cloud site for correct information.

To paraphrase, the whole point of a JSD is to progressively involve more cones to increase the load; there is no shock loading in the system. The only exception is if the boat yaws and then the loading and unloading of the individual bridle legs can cause shock loads; but even these shock loads are a fraction of the total load.

Arguably, non-stretch line is better due to not storing any energy in the rode.

That is exactly right. That is how it is supposed to work, and how it does work. I have a Dyneema JSD in my 46 ft cat.

[Fi2010]

The JSD has the same shock loading problems as any other device. This information is in the US Coast Guard report.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

The JSD has the same shock loading problems as any other device. This information is in the US Coast Guard report.

hmmm . . . let me quote directly from that report

"
The boat rode better with the series drogue; there was not as large and sudden a jerk on the boat as it was pulled through the wave. .....

The only problem noted with the series drogue is that it was difficult to retrieve at the end of the test. "

Originally Posted by Fi2010

The concept of not using stretchy materials with storm drogues and para-anchors was first tested by Zack Smith.

and no, Zach was not the first to use or to test dyneema rodes - quite a number of us had been using dyneema on jsd for quite a while.

[Fi2010]

Omitting pertinent test results from the report doesn’t change what was actually written. For instance, Jordan admitted the JSD had a higher failure rate than the sea anchor and cone drogue. It wasn’t until Jordon attached weight to the JSD did it match the performance level of the sea anchor and cone drogue.

Jordon didn’t only write about the JSD short comings, he also wrote about its successes. Fantastic! It’s always smart to talk about the cons and pros so we can learn.

It’s one of the reasons we produced a setting the record straight article. We wanted sailors to see both sides of using para-anchors and storm drogues. The article was reviewed by the US Coast Guard and deemed correct.

We have continued to publish the facts about the JSD, Para-Anchor, and speed-limiting drogues. The goal is to supply all of the facts, bad and good, so sailors can decide what they feel will work best for them. We also would like sailors to understand how they can solve a problem if an issue arises during deployment.

Zack Smith has published numerous articles, manuals, reports, and videos providing solutions to drag device failures. JSD sellers amongst other drag device suppliers are now adapting Zack’s work in order to improve the use of their para-anchors and storm drogues. The evidence in this matter is conclusive.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by quackedo

Wow! Be very careful about what you write here. While testing of new materials is important and will possibly change things over time, they should be very well vetted before being adopted. Very few people have spent 4 days or more in a survival storm condition and actually have the experience to safely talk about what is needed and what works. Too much of these inputs are theories at best.


When in a storm at sea you have two options:
1) Run before the storm and keep someone active at the helm while taking waves basically on some portion of the stern to keep from broaching, chinese gybe, or knockdown. A drogue will help keep your speed down and help prevent this.

2) Deploy a proper Sea Anchor off the bow and go below to wait it out while occasionally checking for and dealing with chafe. This parks you at sea and is a passive attempt to ride out a storm safely.


One quick note. The drogue allows you to travel with the storm and keeps you in it longer. The sea anchor slows/stops the boat and allows the storm to pass as quickly as possible thus shortening the time you are in the storm.



To suggest that someone would intentionally take waves on any part of the stern while not steering or watching the boat is a very serious mistake.
It would be similar to lying a-hull which has been proven time and time again to be a death sentence.
Boats are made to take waves on the "bow" not the stern. Taking large breaking waves repeatedly on the stern is a terrible idea and would lead to loss of the boat eventually.


Suggesting that "Heavy Jerking Loads" are not an issue is a statement that could only be made by someone that has never rode out huge breaking waves with a drogue or sea anchor deployed. There is a video here in this thread showing loading that finally breaks the Monitor rudder off the boat.

Lastly.



A parachute anchor used as a stern drogue can be easily collapsed by a breaking wave as it passes. This renders it virtually useless and was one of the main reasons that the series drogue was invented in the first place.


People with real extended experience in survival situations and the use of either parachutes or drogues over days in a very stormy sea should be given the most credence here. Experiments or theories have their place, but should be adopted very slowly over proven amounts of time.


There are too many people relatively new to this topic with untested opinions being stated as facts.


Be careful.

I appreciate your input, but you’re still confusing a speed limiting drogue such as a Shark or Galerider, both of which are only one element, whose only purpose is to slow the boat to just below hull speed and prevent wild accelerations down the faces of waves. Agreed that active steering is necessary in this case.

But a JSD slows the boat to around 2 knots and works by holding the boat in place. It is absolutely NOT a speed limiting drogue and all the reports of its use do not describe steering. A JSD is designed with two bridle lines, one from either stern quarter, and these keep the boat aligned with the drogue.

A JSD is a reasonable alternative to a sea anchor in your step 2 above. Using a JSD is nothing like lying ahull.

Though actually, for a catamaran lying ahull may not be all that bad as it skids rather than rolls.

But this begs the question: what experience do you have of a Jordan Series Drogue (JSD)? You write incorrect statements with great authority and without any references.

Neither I nor most of the other contributors are writing from theory, but from research and anecdotes from real life usage, from references already provided in this thread and others. None of us is making **** up to steer others, and ourselves, wrongly. Also note that using Dyneema is not brand new - there’s at least a decade’s worth of use (in JSDs) of Dyneema rodes.

Please note also that as the OP I stated explicitly that this thread is to be about assembling and using Dyneema in place of double braid polyester; this thread is NOT about selecting an alternative storm handling system.

Regarding the windvane getting damaged, that has been discussed at length elsewhere; the bridle lines caught behind it and pulled it free. The advice is to lift or remove the blade before deploying the JSD. Those incidents show that individual bridle lines load and unload, but their loads in Dyneema are not any stronger than in using double braid polyester.

Nylon is not recommended anymore due to excess stretch and weakening from internal friction and being wet. Over-sizing to counter those problems make the JSD unmanageably big and heavy.

The reports of boats lying to JSDs do not describe large breaking waves inundating their cockpits. One of the reasons may be that sterns typically have much more volume than bows and will more readily rise. But a boat should be prepared for big seas in the cockpit due to large breaking waves - removing items from rails and stern pushpits and installing washboards at least to deck level.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Bigmarv

agree dyneema is suitable. i thought the reason for the decreasing diameters using old-tech rope was just to reduce weight and bulk towards the end as less strength was needed. i would choose dyneema if building one now although i would want to be sure my lead to the winch worked as pulling them in by hand is so hard that you could be waiting for days to do it on slippery rope.



fxykty, i'm interested in these on modern cats. what's your thinking if it gets dirty enough that you have heavy water dumping into the cockpit and hitting the vertical doors to the saloon?

We have 3.5m of hulls behind our rear beam and cockpit, so have quite a bit of flotation behind us; unlike many more modern designs that push the bridgedeck right to the sterns.

That said, we’re installing a pair of rails on the cabin wall just outside the door frame to take a 3/4” marine ply washboard. This washboard will be half height, about 3”/10cm above the deck level around the cockpit. Note that on our cat we have deck and the rear beam without any pass-throughs surrounding our cockpit.

[thinwater]

Just for transparency...


Fi2020 represents Fiorentino, the makers of the Shark and Para-Anchor. Zack is their technical guy.

[Doek]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I appreciate your input, but you’re still confusing a speed limiting drogue such as a Shark or Galerider, both of which are only one element, whose only purpose is to slow the boat to just below hull speed and prevent wild accelerations down the faces of waves. Agreed that active steering is necessary in this case.

But a JSD slows the boat to around 2 knots and works by holding the boat in place. It is absolutely NOT a speed limiting drogue and all the reports of its use do not describe steering. A JSD is designed with two bridle lines, one from either stern quarter, and these keep the boat aligned with the drogue.

A JSD is a reasonable alternative to a sea anchor in your step 2 above. Using a JSD is nothing like lying ahull.

Though actually, for a catamaran lying ahull may not be all that bad as it skids rather than rolls.

But this begs the question: what experience do you have of a Jordan Series Drogue (JSD)? You write incorrect statements with great authority and without any references.

Neither I nor most of the other contributors are writing from theory, but from research and anecdotes from real life usage, from references already provided in this thread and others. None of us is making **** up to steer others, and ourselves, wrongly. Also note that using Dyneema is not brand new - there’s at least a decade’s worth of use (in JSDs) of Dyneema rodes.

Please note also that as the OP I stated explicitly that this thread is to be about assembling and using Dyneema in place of double braid polyester; this thread is NOT about selecting an alternative storm handling system.

Regarding the windvane getting damaged, that has been discussed at length elsewhere; the bridle lines caught behind it and pulled it free. The advice is to lift or remove the blade before deploying the JSD. Those incidents show that individual bridle lines load and unload, but their loads in Dyneema are not any stronger than in using double braid polyester.

Nylon is not recommended anymore due to excess stretch and weakening from internal friction and being wet. Over-sizing to counter those problems make the JSD unmanageably big and heavy.

The reports of boats lying to JSDs do not describe large breaking waves inundating their cockpits. One of the reasons may be that sterns typically have much more volume than bows and will more readily rise. But a boat should be prepared for big seas in the cockpit due to large breaking waves - removing items from rails and stern pushpits and installing washboards at least to deck level.

The reports that do not describe large breaking waves inundating their cockpits is because the waves weren't large, breaking and inundating the cockpit.

Regarding my experience of over 35 years at sea in multiple different monohulls in storms where the waves were not only breaking into the cockpit, but washing the entire length of the boat with green water. I am not a theorist, I speak from actual experience. In the survival storms that I was caught out in there were waves that I would never turn my stern to. Boats are not designed to take that kind of continuous punishment on the stern for that length of time.



I have used and own a well-used Galerider, A Fiorintino Para-Anchor, and a lesser used JSD. The Gale Rider was the least effective and was only used sparingly in lighterish conditions as well as the Jordan Series. They were used in the rare occasion where we opted to run before the storm because survival conditions hadn't occurred and weren't expected and we had a decent crew to man the helm watches. Once true survival conditions were forecasted or I was alone, I opted to Heave-to "properly" and prepare the Sea Anchor at the bow. Fatigue is one of the deadliest factors in most of these situations.


I have sailed through some incredible storms when I was younger. I work very hard to avoid them at all costs these days. However, I do know what to do in the various conditions that occur in these situations from years of trial and error about what works and what will get you killed. My boat is set up accordingly with the proper equipment.



Too many theories do not survive the first few hours of a serous blow. It makes me wonder how many people have been killed by them?



Saying that I am making incorrect statements without reference is quite insulting and unfounded. I wish you well.


I'm going to find something constructive to do with my time.