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Old 27-04-2020, 12:47   #31
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Not directly but somewhat related to the subject - these are the best real footage I have seen of the drogue in action. Its from Shane Freeman's prep for the Golden Globe. Its Easy to see the grab at the right moment and then slacking. Unfortunately his windvane got damaged as he left the paddle in the water.



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Old 27-04-2020, 12:50   #32
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Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
..............


Thanks your explanation of why there is no shock loading makes perfect sense!

Regarding chafe- dyneema is a bear to cut- no argument. Those of us who spice it often have special scissors to cut it as a knife just makes a mess.

But- Chafe is a repetitive ’injury’, examples- if you do not taper the bury on a Brummel lock, it will chafe through the putter layer and cause failure of the line (several notable failures and at least one death from it). Likewise bare dyneema will chafe in life lines - hence the dyneema chafe cover that is available.

However, you use covered dyneema the chafe is not an issue.
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Old 29-04-2020, 21:07   #33
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Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Found a bunch of old 10mm chain lying around that weighs 22.5kg including the 4 galvanised shackles, so meets the suggested 22kg weight (increased from the double braided polyester weight of 18kg). I’ve used 3 smaller shackles to bundle the chain into 4 shorter lengths rather than one really long length, and a 4th larger shackle to collect the three shackles and connect to the tail’s thimble. I added a few nylon washers to hold the thimble snugly on the pin. Would have preferred a shorter length of bigger chain, but that would cost money so not for now.

Attachment 214022

Yes, no mouse wires yet.

The chain fits in a heavy duty bucket (with good drainage at the bottom) that will sit in the cockpit locker with the bag holding the rest of the JSD. The JSD is loosely flaked (“flaked” is the wrong word, “stuffed” instead) with the leader at the bottom and tail at the top.

Bridles will be soft shackled to their respective chainplates, then led over the rear beam, avoiding the mainsheet traveller, and into the cockpit locker. The two bridle eyes will be connected to the leader eye with a single modified strop bend (the two bridle eyes will be treated as one by the leader eye - once I get the bridles back from temporary forestay duty I can show that).

To launch, I figure we’ll lift the chain bucket and JSD bag out of the locker and rest them on the cockpit seat adjacent to the rear beam. When ready, we’ll lift the chain bucket over the rear beam, then tip it. The chain should all fall out then drag the tail and the rest of the JSD out. I think we might need to add a heavy fabric chute to the bag so that the JSD doesn’t rub against other rigging or the rear beam as it’s running out.

Hopefully only a couple weeks until NZ lowers the alert level and we can go boating again. Then I intend to test the launching system and everything else.
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Old 29-04-2020, 23:38   #34
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Found a bunch of old 10mm chain lying around that weighs 22.5kg including the 4 galvanised shackles, so meets the suggested 22kg weight (increased from the double braided polyester weight of 18kg). I’ve used 3 smaller shackles to bundle the chain into 4 shorter lengths rather than one really long length, and a 4th larger shackle to collect the three shackles and connect to the tail’s thimble. I added a few nylon washers to hold the thimble snugly on the pin. Would have preferred a shorter length of bigger chain, but that would cost money so not for now.

Attachment 214022

Yes, no mouse wires yet.

The chain fits in a heavy duty bucket (with good drainage at the bottom) that will sit in the cockpit locker with the bag holding the rest of the JSD. The JSD is loosely flaked (“flaked” is the wrong word, “stuffed” instead) with the leader at the bottom and tail at the top.

Bridles will be soft shackled to their respective chainplates, then led over the rear beam, avoiding the mainsheet traveller, and into the cockpit locker. The two bridle eyes will be connected to the leader eye with a single modified strop bend (the two bridle eyes will be treated as one by the leader eye - once I get the bridles back from temporary forestay duty I can show that).

To launch, I figure we’ll lift the chain bucket and JSD bag out of the locker and rest them on the cockpit seat adjacent to the rear beam. When ready, we’ll lift the chain bucket over the rear beam, then tip it. The chain should all fall out then drag the tail and the rest of the JSD out. I think we might need to add a heavy fabric chute to the bag so that the JSD doesn’t rub against other rigging or the rear beam as it’s running out.

Hopefully only a couple weeks until NZ lowers the alert level and we can go boating again. Then I intend to test the launching system and everything else.


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Old 01-05-2020, 06:46   #35
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

I wish I'd gone with dyneema because of the space it would have saved for storage. Ah well!
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Old 01-05-2020, 07:39   #36
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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For storm survival we decided to go with a Jordan Series Drogue (JSD) rather than a sea anchor due to the propensity of our lightweight cat to yaw at anchor. Note: this thread is not about the selection of a JSD; it’s about assembling a JSD using Dyneema for bridle and rode.

We got 156 cones (based on multihull with loaded displacement 12,000kg) from Ocean Brake Home (unfortunately they’re redoing their website right now so no info there right now). We got cones only as we didn’t want the weight and bulk of double braided polyester (would have been 22mm/7/8” bridle and leader, 18mm/3/4” first, and 14mm/7/16” tail). We’ve used 12mm, 10mm and 8mm Acera Amundsen (Dyneema from Timms Ropes, sourced from Greenline Fishing Gear Greenline Fishing Gear - Home) instead.

Ocean Brake recommends 18kg of weight for this drogue when using double braid polyester. Since the Dyneema floats, there needs to be additional weight, based on some reported testing that I can’t find right now.

I asked Ocean Brake and they recommended 20-22kg of weight. That’s a bit less than I would have expected. Any thoughts?

Rode and weight requirements are detailed in post #54 https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2875199

Glad to hear Ocean Brake is finally upping the weight requirements.
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:50   #37
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Found a bunch of old 10mm chain lying around that weighs 22.5kg including the 4 galvanised shackles, so meets the suggested 22kg weight (increased from the double braided polyester weight of 18kg).
Hi Fxykty
Congratulations on finishing your drogue!
It is certainly a mammoth task.

Regarding my decision not to increase the weight selected because of the issue of flotation, the reason I did not bump it up was EStarzinger’s reply to my specific query regarding this in 2017:

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Did you use extra weight at the end to compensate for the fact that the dyneema floats, instead of sinking as polyester does?
We tried with and without weights. Ended up using without. It is easier to recover without, and does not seem to skip on the surface.
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Old 01-05-2020, 09:11   #38
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Proper weight placement is extremely important. Are you suggesting using less weight than what’s recommended by Don Jordan and Gerrard Fiorentino?
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Old 01-05-2020, 09:13   #39
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Proper weight placement is extremely important. Are you suggesting using less weight than what’s recommended by Don Jordan and Gerrard Fiorentino?

I did not suggest this. EStarzinger did.
I have simply not increased the weight to compensate for Acera’s properties.
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:20   #40
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

That’s good.

There’s significant research being conducted by US Navy contractors regarding ship stopping devices, including the use of multiple drogues. Zack Smith is in charge of designing and testing the drag devices, including managing team members aboard various Naval and research vessels. Smith deploys the equipment with personnel in various sea states. Results are well recorded by the naval contractors.

Once test results are published, many of your opinions regarding parachute sea anchors and storm drogues are likely to change. The results might be shocking to you. All we can say at the moment with absolute certainty, is how much weight is used and how it’s distributed on a drag device is hugely, hugely, hugely important!
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Old 01-05-2020, 16:32   #41
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

While I like the JSD I wouldn’t write off a para- anchor. If the rode is long enough and if you want, you can do as the Pardys do and off-set the bow a few degrees to one side. Many multis have successfully rode out violent weather with them. I have used in heavy weather with my mono-hull. Once I finally got enough rode out it was a huge help. Heavy weather, extreme fatigue and wife very sick.
Better than being at anchor; totally different dynamics.
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Old 01-05-2020, 18:07   #42
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Just out of curiosity, how heavy a weather? Only guy I know that's used one in say 50 knots and 20 foot waves off the bow of a rather famous Hughes 38, told me it was 3x rougher than any anchorage he'd ever been in.

Can really keep it offset on a cat, I don't believe. Also if the drougue isn't enough at some stage. Pretty dangerous to switch to a sea anchor at that point. I think bigger cats are OK with drougues up to maybe 50 knots of wind and then???
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Old 02-05-2020, 11:40   #43
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

Storm Parachutes are usually deployed from the bow, Jordan Droges are deployed from the stern.
The storm anchor allows you to park and go below and wait for the weather to pass. The Drogue is deployed from the stern and used to continue on your way while actively steering the boat.
Two very different techniques, but both have huge loads and require a stretchy material to absorb things (nylon).
It was found that trailing a smaller parachute from the stern to act as a drogue instead of a sea anchor had the problem of getting collapsed in larger breaking Seas and becoming useless. That is why the Jordan Drogue was created. Hopefully it wouldn't entirely collapse in a single wave.
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Old 02-05-2020, 15:21   #44
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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...
The Drogue is deployed from the stern and used to continue on your way while actively steering the boat.
...
A JSD is not an active drogue; you’re thinking of speed-limiting single element drogues like the Shark or Galerider or similar. Unlike those, after deploying a JSD you lock your rudder(s) and go below as the boat meanders along at 2 knots. Not unlike, though a bit faster, than lying to a sea anchor.

Quote:
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...
Two very different techniques, but both have huge loads and require a stretchy material to absorb things (nylon).

...

Ummm, no, stretchy material is not required to absorb loads for a JSD, as has been explained several times earlier in this thread.
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Old 02-05-2020, 15:41   #45
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Jordan Series Drogue in Dyneema

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Just out of curiosity, how heavy a weather? Only guy I know that's used one in say 50 knots and 20 foot waves off the bow of a rather famous Hughes 38, told me it was 3x rougher than any anchorage he'd ever been in.

Can really keep it offset on a cat, I don't believe. Also if the drougue isn't enough at some stage. Pretty dangerous to switch to a sea anchor at that point. I think bigger cats are OK with drougues up to maybe 50 knots of wind and then???

Do you mean the guy used a JSD off the bow? That’s completely wrong and a good way to wreck your boat; no wonder it was uncomfortable.

If you mean that he deployed a sea anchor from the bow, offset the bridles as per the Pardeys, and still found it very uncomfortable, that’s not surprising. Most catamarans, and presumably most high-topside, flat-underside and fin-keel monohulls as well, will not lie happily to a sea anchor like the full-keel low-freeboard boats of the good (?) old days.

A JSD deployed from the stern (correctly), or a sea anchor deployed from the bow (correctly), are both ultimate survival techniques. There is nothing more effective to change to as the conditions get worse; you hunker down in the cabin and hope like hell that nothing bad happens before the conditions moderate.

Now, if you’re running across or before the wind/waves under bare poles and trying to slow down with warps or a speed limiting drogue, that’s when switching modes is difficult. As the conditions get worse and you’re tired and/or waves are breaking, at some point you may want to, or need to, switch to survival mode.

Regardless of whether you have a JSD or sea anchor, recovering the warps or speed-limiting drogue comes first. In near survival conditions that would be an awfully difficult thing to do. Maybe cutting them free would be safer?

Assuming you are able to remove the warps/speed-limiting drogue and haven’t subsequently lost control of your boat, then deploying the JSD is not difficult and should provide instant relief.

If you need to turn around so as to deploy a sea anchor, oh boy, that’s a scary manoeuvre. Once you’ve done that however, then you deploy your sea anchor and get instant relief.

Question for the experts: is turning bow to weather required, or can you deploy a sea anchor (from the bow) while running downwind?
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