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Old 15-11-2016, 03:50   #91
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Couple of Spanish friends in a wauquiez amphitrite 45 doing a RTW ... Electric main and jib furlers , not a single jam..... http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&...-oNMl5a-Pbfg2g
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Old 15-11-2016, 05:04   #92
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I agree in what regards really big boats to be more problematic for reefing traditional way, not really for reefing put a PITA to stow it properly folded on the bag. Sail lasts longer but a lot more work to stow unless you have one of those booms angled with the neck near the cabin or deck.

For really big boats a very good furler boom is the best and that is what really big yachts have, if they are not sportive and have a conventional reefing. I am not sure if they jam less but that would not prevent to bring the sail down.

I don't understand why you say that you need to head to the wind or to leave the cockpit to reef the sail with a traditional system. Only if I am sailing really downwind I will have to go till a beam reaching or so and only in conditions of strong wind. Much depends on the quality of the cars you will have on the sail and regarding you having a retrieving line on top of the sail or not.

And what i really don't understand is why you say someone has to leave the cockpit to furl on a conventional system. If the system is rigged for it (and all modern boats are) you don't need to leave the cockpit at all.

Regarding in mast furling some on systems you have to winch from the mast and that means leaving the cockpit.

I certainly don't agree that the possibilities of jamming are the same in what regards a conventional system and an in mast furling, specially in what regards the possibility of haven the sail brought down if there is a problem. An in mast furling is much more complicated and have much more possibilities of jamming than a conventional one. Not meaning that it happens frequently.

And finally, most of all, I don't agree with the in mast furling being more adequate for passage sailing or high latitude sailing. I see it as the opposite, being that system more prone to eventual problems it makes more sense to use it if the sail is done coastally, where help is at hand if really a big problem happens.

It seems to be the opinion of really high latitude sailors and what you will find on on the rigs of the boats properly designed for that type of sailing. And normally the ones that sail on remote inhospitable places are very experienced sailors.
In your insatiable eagerness to find something to argue with -- as usual -- you completely missed the point I was trying to make.

I wrote highER latitudes, and did not at all mean polar regions and extreme adventure sailing (even if it's something I have in mind for my next boat). I meant something like 45N -- 65N and probably something similar in the Southern Hemisphere, not polar regions.

My point was that -- in MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE, and I am not asserting that this subjective point of view is valid for everyone -- the relative benefits of in-mast furling start to make more sense in windier sailing areas and harsher conditions, and don't make much sense in benign lower latitudes.

What I'm speaking about is actually my own personal experience with in-mast furling -- in Florida and the Caribbean, I hated it. In the English Channel and North Sea, I started to appreciate it.

The lack of roach really kills the fun on hot high pressure calm days when you need every bit of drive you can get.

But you don't miss it so much in windy latitudes when you're mostly reefed down anyway, especially when it's cold and the air is "heavy".

In-mast furling works better in strong wind, than it does in light wind, as someone mentioned -- easier to get a tight furl.

In heavy sea conditions it can be really nice not to head up or ease the boom to reef. Not to mention going to the mast.

In strong weather it can be really great to be able to frequently make fine adjustments of sail area.

Another benefit which I didn't mention is that in-mast furling mains, for some reason, actually get flatter as they are furled, so they work very well when partially furled.

So I've been reasonably happy with my in-mast furling main up here in these waters. I would not have chosen in-mast furling at the time I bought this boat, if I had had any choice (almost impossible to buy a non-production large bluewater cruising boat up here with anything else, unless you're buying new and special ordering), but I grew to like it ok with time.


I'm not selling them, and my next boat will probably have a normal fully battened main. But I care more about ultimate performance than 90% of cruisers, and so others may have different priorities. For sailing up here, in-mast furling can make a lot of sense for many sailors, and not coincidentally, they are extremely popular up here. That's just my opinion, for whatever it may be worth for someone like the OP who is trying to make a choice. In the Med I wouldn't dream of it.


Another tip about in-mast furling -- I am glad I listened to my sailmaker, who told me, when I was ordering new sails last year, that (a) laminate sails are thinner and lighter and roll up better, don't blow out to cause jamming risks; and (b) vertical battens now work well, with upside down pockets and very thin carbon construction, despite earlier horror stories.

I've done about 7 000 miles on the resulting new laminate mainsail with vertical battens, and it looks like he was right. The sail rolls in and out much better, and the battens and straight luff make a huge improvement in performance, compared to the old hollow leech dacron sail.






As to in-boom furling -- I've never tried it, so not really entitled to an opinion. But the lack of any control for foot tension looks like a deal-breaker for me, as much as I would love to have the roach.
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Old 15-11-2016, 05:22   #93
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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And a third hand to smoothly feed out the outhaul . . .

Yes, I have an electric winch at that position, but it doesn't solve the outhaul problem.
I am not following you here. We have an electric winch that handles the outhaul and a button for the electric furler. When we bought our boat the two were on opposite sides of the cockpit which made no sense at all. With the winch moved close to the button it is dead easy to take the sail in or out - you just use the winch to control the outhaul (one hand) while pushing the button (less work than the outhaul so you can use that hand to scratch your nose as needed).

We have furled and unfurled up to mid 50 knot range without issue. Furling typically takes less than a minute. Unfurling speed is dependant on how hard to you work cranking out the outhaul. BTW, furling actually is easier when it is windier (>30 knots) than in light airs.

Final thought, I don't know whether new main furler technology is better than old. Out Hood is old, installed in 1983, and works just fine - but like most Hood stuff it is very heavily built.
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Old 15-11-2016, 05:25   #94
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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In your insatiable eagerness to find something to argue with -- as usual -- you completely missed the point I was trying to make.

I wrote highER latitudes, and did not at all mean polar regions and extreme adventure sailing (even if it's something I have in mind for my next boat). I meant something like 45N -- 65N and probably something similar in the Southern Hemisphere, not polar regions.
65S is quite frosty

I agree with most of your post on the merits of when roller furling theoretically is more useful.

One issue that I have seen a few times is that when it goes wrong getting a new sail and spare parts for the furler to some remote location can be problematic and take long enough that you can loose a season. For example; Just a few months ago there was an Ovni 38 (don't remember the name) sitting in Hao with a few tattered rags hanging out of the back of their mast waiting for a new sail and parts for their furler to be shipped in. That is one example of three or four that I know of.

It wasn't terrible; it's a pleasant enough place but the supply chain is very slow. Something else to consider.
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Old 15-11-2016, 05:28   #95
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Littlechay View Post
65S is quite frosty

I agree with most of your post on the merits of when roller furling theoretically is more useful.

One issue that I have seen a few times is that when it goes wrong getting a new sail and spare parts for the furler to some remote location can be problematic and take long enough that you can loose a season. For example; Just a few months ago there was an Ovni 38 (don't remember the name) sitting in Hao with a few tattered rags hanging out of the back of their mast waiting for a new sail and parts for their furler to be shipped in. That is one example of three or four that I know of.

It wasn't terrible; it's a pleasant enough place but the supply chain is very slow. Something else to consider.
Ha, ha. I realized just as I pressed "send", that I should have named different numbers for Southern Hemisphere latitudes.


Yes -- parts supply is a good point if you're going to be in remote locations. Simpler systems become more attractive immediately, and also -- spares, spares, spares. I've had trouble getting a simple diaphragm for the world's most popular grey water pump -- in Sweden!
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Old 15-11-2016, 05:58   #96
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Because it wasn't windy the day I had the idea to make the video. If you think you can do a better job, why don't you post something yourself instead of just criticizing those of us attempting to increase the info mass?

How much wind would have satisfied you? 20 knots? 30 knots? 40 knots? If I shot the video with 40 knots, you'd probably complain the wind speed wasn't accurate or ask to see the procedure at 50 knots.
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Of course we would have.


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Originally Posted by Littlechay View Post
There is that 30 - 35 knot video again.

Would you buy a roller furling system from a man who exaggerates so much? This video has been debunked in at least one other thread. He is so proud of it he drops it in at any opportunity relevant or not. Get real Kenomac and give it a rest.
See.... It was only a matter of time. Someone asks to see a video, I post a video, then someone else complains about the content of the video that they were apparently forced to watch against their will.

So predictable these days on CF. Like I wrote earlier. "If you think you can do a better job, why don't you post something yourself instead of just criticizing?"
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Old 15-11-2016, 06:59   #97
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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So predictable these days on CF. Like I wrote earlier. "If you think you can do a better job, why don't you post something yourself instead of just criticizing?"
Nothing wrong with the video it's just the caption that you keep putting on it regarding the wind speed.

I have plenty of constructive stuff on here but when I see BS I point it out so yea occasionally I criticize

Anyway you are on ignore now so I don't have to see your drivel.
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Old 15-11-2016, 07:01   #98
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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In your insatiable eagerness to find something to argue with -- as usual -- you completely missed the point I was trying to make....
You should not resource to this type of argumentation when you have no more valid arguments. It is not nice, a clear attempt to undermine the credibility of another poster without any fundament.


I wrote highER latitudes, and did not at all mean polar regions and extreme adventure sailing (even if it's something I have in mind for my next boat). I meant something like 45N -- 65N and probably something similar in the Southern Hemisphere, not polar regions.
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My point was that -- in MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE, and I am not asserting that this subjective point of view is valid for everyone -- the relative benefits of in-mast furling start to make more sense in windier sailing areas and harsher conditions, and don't make much sense in benign lower latitudes.
....
It is all a question of risk management. Traditional reefing offers less risks than in mast furling due to the impossibility of lowering the sail on the rare eventuality of a jammed sail. That happens rarely but it happens. You should know, your sail jammed at least once.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ter-44531.html
You were lucky not to be on the middle of an ocean.

The reason why high latitude sailors and most of all, boats prepared for that, use traditional masts and traditional reefing has to do with minimizing risk.

The risk is the same in any latitude but the problems way bigger if someone stays with a shredded sail,stuck sail or even lose the mast on some remote place faraway from help.

The risk is equally bigger if you sail a lot of ocean passages, sail a lot of time and be many times far away from help. That's the same reasons that made those "polar" sailors (as you called them) chose traditional reefing, to minimize risks since they sail many times in remote regions for a long time. The middle of an ocean is a remote place too

There are some that sail on those "polar" regions with in mast furlers the same way that are some that circumnavigate with small production main market boats, old boats in bad shape or even lake boats. That is possible and not necessarily dangerous, many had done that, but certainly taking a much bigger risk than if they had done that with a sailboat specially adapted for that, a 45ft Aluminium or Steel boat with traditional reefing.

This is all about risk management, nothing else.
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Old 15-11-2016, 07:12   #99
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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The reason why high latitude sailors and most of all, boats prepared for that, use traditional masts and traditional reefing has to do with minimizing risk.
But there are Icebird and the Paratiis that buck that trend - not my choice of rig but it works for them. Traditional reefing on Aerorigs.

Not without their problems. I think they have all suffered clew/outhaul attachment failures but once beefed up they have been OK and there have been some hydraulic issues.
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Old 15-11-2016, 08:01   #100
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

We used to have these debates between roller furling and hanked on sails with similar opinions, still a few cling to days gone by. My views are that performance wise in light to medium airs the normal large roached sail is superior in every way. The roller furlers do make life pretty easy and they furl very flat when down to storm size, if you can walk, chew gum at the same time you should be able to learn how to properly use it to avoid screwups.
One of the other plus points is that it's a very cheap sail to replace compared to a normal sail so it's easy on the pocket book when it comes time to replace. Make sure you get rid of bagged out old furling main sails as this is the number one cause of jams when operating.
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Old 15-11-2016, 08:34   #101
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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But there are Icebird and the Paratiis that buck that trend - not my choice of rig but it works for them. Traditional reefing on Aerorigs.

Not without their problems. I think they have all suffered clew/outhaul attachment failures but once beefed up they have been OK and there have been some hydraulic issues.
I don't think Icebird or Paratiis has anything to do with this discussion. A completely different rig...for another discussion. Nothing to do with conventional in mast furling.


The Beneteau technical team has been working and developing that rig for being used for the first time on a mass produced boat.

They made some comparative tests with that rig and the normal one. I saw the results and was not convinced that the superior cost and complexity were justified. Maybe is why Beneteau after a big publicity and different magazine test sails is not launched it yet even if I am sure some would buy it just to have a different and more exclusive boat.
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Old 15-11-2016, 08:39   #102
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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We used to have these debates between roller furling and hanked on sails with similar opinions, still a few cling to days gone by. ....
Not the same thing. The roller and the rope of a furling sail are readily accessible and the sail is not put inside a narrow container and therefore the chances of Jam are much smaller.
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Old 15-11-2016, 08:46   #103
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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I don't think Icebird or Paratiis has anything to do with this discussion. A completely different rig...for another discussion. Nothing to do with conventional in mast furling.
I was countering your sweeping statement that high latitude boats use traditional masts, some use tree trunks. There is obviously room for innovation in all aspects of the rig including furling.
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Old 15-11-2016, 08:51   #104
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Not the same thing. The roller and the rope of a furling sail are readily accessible and the sail is not put inside a narrow container and therefore the chances of Jam are much smaller.
These systems are on every charter monohull out there and even fools seem to make it home so while I personally prefer big roached mains I can't deny that in time virtually 95% of cruising boats will be built this way. Cats are going to be less of course as long as they carry and rely on large mainsails but if the headsail area really starts to increase on them it wouldn't surprise me if they started used furlers as well.
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Old 15-11-2016, 10:21   #105
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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...
These systems are on every charter monohull out there and even fools seem to make it home so while I personally prefer big roached mains I can't deny that in time virtually 95% of cruising boats will be built this way. Cats are going to be less of course as long as they carry and rely on large mainsails but if the headsail area really starts to increase on them it wouldn't surprise me if they started used furlers as well.
That is not the point. I am not denying that boom furling is reliable, just that traditional reefing is more reliable. Being reliable does not mean that is not subject to problems but that it does so very rarely. The problem is that when that happens on a furler mast the consequences can be catastrophic and they are not theoretical since they have happened on several boats with some examples posted on this thread by several posters.

That is the reasons that on the boats risks are minimized as much as they can, on aluminium voyage boats, 100% of the boats come with traditional mast. Have a look at the sites of those builders.

Off course if some guy appears saying that he will only buy the boat if they put a furling mast on it, they will do it but the standard boat has a traditional mast with a boom with single line reefing.

And it is not for a cost reason since the traditional mast with single line reefing boom is not less expensive (in fact I paid more to have one instead of a furling mast).

Charter boats are coastal boats, not boats minimized in what regards seaworthiness.

Regarding 90% of the boats on the market using boom furler you are right but the reason why they don't use boom furling instead it is because a good boom furler is way more expensive. They want to offer to sailors a system that is easier to use (specially for a inexperienced sailor) than a traditional reefing system. That sells boats.

When money is not a problem you see quality sailing boats using a boom furler, that not only offers a better sail performance as it allows the sail to be lowered if there is a jam on the boom furler.












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