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Old 14-11-2016, 17:52   #76
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Furling mains are fine. They are safe unless you do something stupid. Same applies to other sails.

You must do good maintenance as with any other piece of equipment.

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Old 14-11-2016, 19:25   #77
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Furling mains are fine. They are safe unless you do something stupid. Same applies to other sails.

You must do good maintenance as with any other piece of equipment.

b.
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Old 14-11-2016, 19:39   #78
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Which higher latitudes would those be???

Having seen a Moody limp into Montt with an in mast furling main well and truly jammed ( it had to be cut out in bits ) and a blade missing from her folding prop MMDV....
Well, I'm not trying to persuade you, Ping

Use whatever mainsail appeals to you most.

It is my observation -- take it for what it is -- and experience over about a decade with furling mains, that they don't jam PROVIDED two important condition are met: (A) the sail is not blown out; and (B) the system is handled with a reasonable minimum level of skill.

I've seen boats limp into port with halyards jammed at the masthead, which could not be cut away because it was too dangerous to go aloft in the conditions. S**t happens with both systems. I don't have statistics so can't say which system experiences the most problems. I can only say that jams with furling mains where the two condition above are fulfilled are extremely rare.


As to folding props losing blades -- yep, that does happen, too. Are you arguing against those, too?
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Old 14-11-2016, 19:42   #79
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by David B View Post
"Doing it single handed means compromising outhaul tension (let it out in sections rather than continuously). For single handing, you really want an electric or hydraulic furler, which solves this problem."

As per my earlier post in this thread, dead easy to do single handed. Ideally with an electric winch, but a manual winch works fine too (we all have self-tailing winches these days don't we?).

One hand for the winch (button or handle), the other hand for the lazy tail. Easy.
And a third hand to smoothly feed out the outhaul . . .

Yes, I have an electric winch at that position, but it doesn't solve the outhaul problem.
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Old 14-11-2016, 20:10   #80
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Because it wasn't windy the day I had the idea to make the video. If you think you can do a better job, why don't you post something yourself instead of just criticizing those of us attempting to increase the info mass?

How much wind would have satisfied you? 20 knots? 30 knots? 40 knots? If I shot the video with 40 knots, you'd probably complain the wind speed wasn't accurate or ask to see the procedure at 50 knots.
Sorry I offended you. I was just simply asking to see some real live conditions of use other that drifting conditions. Conditions that might give a challenge to any reefing gear (that is what is being discussed,correct?). Maybe something like 18-20 kts for starters.
I appreciate your video for what it is, but i didn't realize that you shot it, or that there wasn't other videos out there that might show its use in higher winds??
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Old 14-11-2016, 21:47   #81
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by AiniA View Post
With our Hood inmast system you can take down the sail partially or fully furled if you had to. The bottom of the foil disconnects inside the mast (it is reachable) and you can slide the whole thing out. Never had to do it and it looks like a bit of a job but doable.

I find it interesting that those criticizing furling mains are those who don't have them but those liking them are those who actually use them and have collectively many tens of thousands of offshore miles with few complaints.


Mine is the same and I've made this point at least a dozen times on previous threads. I'm pretty sure most systems will do this if you just bother to read the manual for them. I've done it on mine, and while it did require a turning block at the base of the mast and a line to a winch from the tack, it was really quite simple. People will go on about jams though, despite the fact that almost all systems out there have actually put some thought into solutions for this.
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Old 14-11-2016, 22:06   #82
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Sorry I offended you. I was just simply asking to see some real live conditions of use other that drifting conditions. Conditions that might give a challenge to any reefing gear (that is what is being discussed,correct?). Maybe something like 18-20 kts for starters.
I appreciate your video for what it is, but i didn't realize that you shot it, or that there wasn't other videos out there that might show its use in higher winds??


My experience has been the higher the wind speed, the tighter the furl. People tend to experience more problems in light winds with furling, because they are trying to furl a baggy sail with no tension on it.
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Old 14-11-2016, 22:26   #83
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Sorry I offended you. I was just simply asking to see some real live conditions of use other that drifting conditions. Conditions that might give a challenge to any reefing gear (that is what is being discussed,correct?). Maybe something like 18-20 kts for starters.
I appreciate your video for what it is, but i didn't realize that you shot it, or that there wasn't other videos out there that might show its use in higher winds??
Here, we shot this video in 40-49 knots with the same mainsail unfurled to 25%. When we pulled into the anchorage, the wind had reduced to 30 knots when we furled in the mainsail.

I'm sorry my wife and I were unable to stand on the stern platform for you to get a better view of the unfurling and furling while it was taking place. Maybe next time.
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Old 14-11-2016, 22:54   #84
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
And a third hand to smoothly feed out the outhaul . . .

Yes, I have an electric winch at that position, but it doesn't solve the outhaul problem.
No, not the way ours is arranged. The winch handles either the out-haul if you are bringing the sail out, or the furling line if you are bringing the sail in. As it is self-tailing, there is nothing else to bother with on that side.

The stb winch is used as a friction device, with the lazy line just running around it, and into a gloved hand, to keep tension on that line.

Ah - just realised - you are thinking of the other lazy line from the endless loop of the furling line? Did not even think of mentioning that, as it just stays in my gloved hand (not going around the winch, as you just need enough tension on that to keep it in the drum of the furler up on the mast.

It really is easy - I do it often rather than bothering my First Mate from her book. Must do a quick video of it next year, when we are back on board.

Of course all these 'strings' are quite primitive, when you have something motorised at the mast like an Amel, but that is in a different price braket entirely.
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Old 14-11-2016, 23:07   #85
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Kudos Polux
The first time I totally agree w you
Great pics too
:-)
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Old 15-11-2016, 01:23   #86
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Kenomac, now lets see a video of the furling process in 50 - 59 kts. From the stern platform if you don't mind.
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Old 15-11-2016, 02:49   #87
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Well, I'm not trying to persuade you, Ping

Use whatever mainsail appeals to you most.

It is my observation -- take it for what it is -- and experience over about a decade with furling mains, that they don't jam PROVIDED two important condition are met: (A) the sail is not blown out; and (B) the system is handled with a reasonable minimum level of skill.

I've seen boats limp into port with halyards jammed at the masthead, which could not be cut away because it was too dangerous to go aloft in the conditions. S**t happens with both systems. I don't have statistics so can't say which system experiences the most problems. I can only say that jams with furling mains where the two condition above are fulfilled are extremely rare.


As to folding props losing blades -- yep, that does happen, too. Are you arguing against those, too?
Yep... I am..... for use in remote areas you want as simple as it comes. There is a difference between 24 hours from port and 24 days.

However, make something more foolproof and they will simply send you a bigger fool....
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Old 15-11-2016, 03:13   #88
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
A sail maker i inquired today got horrified at the idea.

No roach, possible jam, battens !?

It is justifiable only on very large, non performance oriented boats.
No, it is quite justifiable on smaller yachts too. The lack of roach isn't missed, indeed since our yacht was set up for in mast reefing during the build adding a roach now could change the slight weather helm to a huge weather helm.

Jams? yep stuff jams, winches with riding turns, sheaves at the mast head, windlasses and ropes around props, just deal with it.

Battens? well there is one less thing to worry about chaffing or breaking and since you don't need them. That is a saving on the cost of a new main which lasts longer because it is neatly wound up inside the mast most of the time not scrunched up in a damp sail bag or stay pack.
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Old 15-11-2016, 03:44   #89
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
Kudos Polux
The first time I totally agree w you
Great pics too
:-)
Humm, it seems I had said something wrong(just kidding)

For you all, let me explain better what i think about this: I do believe that in mast furling has reached a great stage of development being new systems better than older ones and offering a good reliability.

I do think they are suitable for most uses on cruising boats, including ocasional ocean crossings.

It seems to me also evident that the complexity of the system makes it more prone to jamming, being it for user error (motivated by dire circumstances) or by salt accumulated on the bearings or whatever the reason. Complex systems have always a bigger possibility to fail than simpler ones unless they are redundant.

The case here is that if it fails there is nothing to do, no way to bring the sail down, no redundancy and that's the real problem with the system.

Again, Jams happened but has happened very rarely, but the ones that buy a boat with such a system should be aware of that possibility and on a boat that will be used extensively offshore, a passage maker, I don't think it is a good idea.

The other option, boom furler is a much more acceptable option one not only in what regards sail performance (battens) but also because if it jams it offers the redundancy furling mast don't have and the sail can be brought down on the eventual possibility of a jam.

Some systems work no so well others work well. I like this one that is used even by some performance boats:


It is not surprising that modern maxi yachts use mostly the boom furling system.
furling.
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Old 15-11-2016, 03:46   #90
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Here, we shot this video in 40-49 knots with the same mainsail unfurled to 25%. When we pulled into the anchorage, the wind had reduced to 30 knots when we furled in the mainsail.
There is that 30 - 35 knot video again.

Would you buy a roller furling system from a man who exaggerates so much? This video has been debunked in at least one other thread. He is so proud of it he drops it in at any opportunity relevant or not. Get real Kenomac and give it a rest.
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