Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-11-2016, 07:16   #61
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Good video, but why don't they show such an operation in REAL WINDY conditions?
Because it wasn't windy the day I had the idea to make the video. If you think you can do a better job, why don't you post something yourself instead of just criticizing those of us attempting to increase the info mass?

How much wind would have satisfied you? 20 knots? 30 knots? 40 knots? If I shot the video with 40 knots, you'd probably complain the wind speed wasn't accurate or ask to see the procedure at 50 knots.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 07:30   #62
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Ketch
Efficient Sailing (not over reefed)
Probably I don't agree with you there, depending on boat size for several reasons: less sail efficiency, more expensive (the two sails and the two masts) but most of all the general need of leaving the cockpit to reef at least one of the mast and the need to pay attention to two mast and sails instead of one.

As you probably know Ketch boats were used on the Vendee Globe but abandoned as less practical and less efficient, even for 60ft boats and a solo sailor pushing the boats to the limits..

Maybe they made sense for the very heavy sailboats of the bast that needed to carry a substancial amount of sail on a blow but today's light boats will need only to carry in a blow a small frontal sail, preferentially on a boat with the mast near the center of the boat (modern tendency started by Vendee globe boats) and preferentially a storm sail on an interior stay (cutter rigged or removable stay).

If you say to me that a cutter rig is the ideal configuration for a passage making boat, than I will agree.

Regarding heavy cruisers you can see that in the past many boats designed mostly for passage making had a ketch configuration, some as small as 37ft. Today you can see that from all production or custom production boats designed for passage making with less than 56ft you have only one, the Amel, that has a Ketch configuration. I believe you don't have any modern production passage maker with less than 55 ft with a ketch configuration.

Even so I believe the decision to maintain the ketch configuration on that size has much do do with publicity and boat image. Today very efficient reefing systems, even conventional ones make the ketch not an advantage on that size of boats.

Here you have one of the few modern passage makers (58ft) with a ketch configuration (that sells very little, not sure if more than a boat was made). The second mast has so little sail that I don't know if this was not motivated by a comercial desire or more probably to make concurrence to the Amel traditional buyers:


Philip Briand, the designer has several ketch designed boats but the Alubat 58 is the only small one, the others are about this size:




On a voyage or exploration boat of this size:

I would say it makes sense but here you don't have a ketch with a huge sail and a toy sail but two well proportionate sails for dividing efforts.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 13:01   #63
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, in Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,832
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

I want to chime in here, and I'll just hope no one's belligerent to me about it. I think it can be really important to get your main down fast, at least reefing, but also, dumping it.
And given the documented problems with it--whether it is all operator induced or not--I think a prospective single hander should think long and hard about the potential failure modes.

I have seen, walking through boat yards, boats tied up at work berths, with workmen working on the jammed mainsail furlers, trying to save the sail for the owners. One, it was two men, two days, and still the sail was damaged. For me, seeing something like that -- seeing their expense, and hearing the guys' occasional curses, but most of all, imagining how that must have felt when they got it jammed.....that emotional space is one I wish to avoid . There are sound, seamanlike reasons for keeping things simple.

And, that is part of why the pictures Polux posted are so graphic. Those skippers have reasons for not going for in mast furling, and surely, some of them might have, had they thought it was the best deal for their type of usage.

I hope all you guys out there with in mast furling NEVER have a problem with yours.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 13:56   #64
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 847
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Great debate this one.

In theory in mast furling is great. They systems are somewhat finiky to operator error but most people seem to manage that.

There seem to be two main types of incidents:

Jams caused by operator error; this could be due to being inexperienced numpties or it could be due to the outhaul/vang/topping lift operator being knocked of their feed by a wave at the critical moment - either way nasty.

Or the furling system breaks. There have been a few fail where either the top or bottom bearing failed. If this happens with the sail completely unrolled it is possible to drop the sail. However if the sail is partially furled you have to complete your voyage with whatever sail was out at the time - this scares the crap out of me - or slide down the sail with a knife Pirate of the Caribbean syle and cut it away.

At least with in boom furling you can drop the sail slab (slap) style.

So whilst in principle I am a fan, in practice I am not.

I slab reefing with a full battened main and on boats over about 10m lazy jacks. I reef from the mast, little to go wrong and quick (quicker with a black could fast approaching).

Nice to see some of my old ride in Pollux's post on high latitude boats back there.
Littlechay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 15:23   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: the Med
Boat: Nauta 54' by Scott Kaufman/S&S - 1989
Posts: 1,180
Images: 3
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

A sail maker i inquired today got horrified at the idea.

No roach, possible jam, battens !?

It is justifiable only on very large, non performance oriented boats.
TheThunderbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 15:27   #66
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Just because some impatient or inexperienced knucklehead manages to jam up their in-mast furling system, that doesn't mean that there's an imminent failure awaiting all owners of similar systems.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 16:01   #67
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 1,200
Images: 5
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Thanks all... I learned a ton from this thread. The advantage of the diversity of opinions expressed is that I got to read all your experiences and learn from them regardless the OPs decision.

PS. Loved those high latitude boat pics. Brrrrr.
__________________
https://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 16:04   #68
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia, sailing in the Med.
Boat: Beneteau, Oceanis 50 G5
Posts: 1,295
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CareKnot View Post
I have never been a world cruiser, though I would love the opportunity to become one. I know that I am addressing many that are and have experiences far outside of mine own. So I am asking for a little indulgence. But I have sailed for years and on sailboats of varying sizes and types and in all types of conditions. So my ringing self-endorsement is: I'm not a complete novice.

My observations have led me to believe that more often than not, it is the shape or condition of the sail or a failing of the operator that causes furling sail systems to fail. ................


Personally, for the sake of clarity and for those that come here to learn, I think a distinction should be made. But that's just my opinion.
And a nicely balanced one it is too - thanks for your perspective
David B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 16:10   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Easton, MD
Boat: 15' Catboat, Bristol 35.5
Posts: 3,510
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Because it wasn't windy the day I had the idea to make the video. If you think you can do a better job, why don't you post something yourself instead of just criticizing those of us attempting to increase the info mass?

How much wind would have satisfied you? 20 knots? 30 knots? 40 knots? If I shot the video with 40 knots, you'd probably complain the wind speed wasn't accurate or ask to see the procedure at 50 knots.
Of course we would have.
kmacdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 16:11   #70
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia, sailing in the Med.
Boat: Beneteau, Oceanis 50 G5
Posts: 1,295
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Hey, you used to curse in-mast furling. What happened to soften your attitude? Or are you just in a good mood today?



As others have said --

In-mast furling doesn't suck. With reasonable technique and mainsail in reasonable condition, the Mean Time Between Jams is measured in years if not decades -- not significantly worse than halyard jams or tangles with normal mainsails. Jamming is not really an issue.

The system has some big advantages:

1. Reef without heading up -- something REALLY important in big sea conditions, and in all conditions, a great convenience.

2. Ideal storage of the sail inside the mast -- I agree with Polux that this is possibly the BIGGEST advantage of in-mast reefing. Sails last longer, and you are entirely saved the work of flaking and covering the mainsail, which is a serious job on a bigger boat with a normal main.

And some big disadvantages:

1. Weight aloft

2. Loss of roach, so significant performance hit.

3. Windage of the fatter mast section.

4. No bending the mast for sail trim.


In-mast furling is actually NOT a no-brainer for single-handing however -- you need three hands for reefing with a manual in-mast system. Doing it single handed means compromising outhaul tension (let it out in sections rather than continuously). For single handing, you really want an electric or hydraulic furler, which solves this problem.


My take on in-mast versus normal reefing is this: In-mast comes into its own for blue water and higher latitude sailing where there's nearly always plenty of wind, and you don't miss the roach that much. Especially on bigger boats. In strong conditions also the ability to reef without heading up, and reefing without leaving the cockpit become really big advantages.

In lower latitudes and coastal sailing, and especially on smaller boats, these advantages are somewhat less important, and the better performance of a normal main becomes very attractive.

I still haven't decided for sure which system my next boat will have.

YMMV
"Doing it single handed means compromising outhaul tension (let it out in sections rather than continuously). For single handing, you really want an electric or hydraulic furler, which solves this problem."

As per my earlier post in this thread, dead easy to do single handed. Ideally with an electric winch, but a manual winch works fine too (we all have self-tailing winches these days don't we?).

One hand for the winch (button or handle), the other hand for the lazy tail. Easy.
David B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 16:20   #71
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia, sailing in the Med.
Boat: Beneteau, Oceanis 50 G5
Posts: 1,295
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
But oh well,,,the Op mention Beneteau and Jeaneau as posible targets,,,and if they sport those pesky Zspar gold label in mast furling units,, good luck with that....they are horrible ,, not my favorite piece of gear for real offshore sailing work, there is in mast furling gear and there is junk out there.....
Selden actually - arguably the best in-mast (the only one with an upper bearing).

I don't know about the old ones, but certainly in the last decade it has been Selden.
David B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 16:27   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia, sailing in the Med.
Boat: Beneteau, Oceanis 50 G5
Posts: 1,295
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Just because some impatient or inexperienced knucklehead manages to jam up their in-mast furling system, that doesn't mean that there's an imminent failure awaiting all owners of similar systems.
David B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 16:47   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Easton, MD
Boat: 15' Catboat, Bristol 35.5
Posts: 3,510
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Just because some impatient or inexperienced knucklehead manages to jam up their in-mast furling system, that doesn't mean that there's an imminent failure awaiting all owners of similar systems.
But then again, there a plenty of experienced sailors that claim it is an accident waiting to happen. For my small boats it's not a consideration.
kmacdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 17:35   #74
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 847
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Just because some impatient or inexperienced knucklehead manages to jam up their in-mast furling system, that doesn't mean that there's an imminent failure awaiting all owners of similar systems.
You know where "foolproof" comes from. That's what offshore sailing systems should be.
Littlechay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2016, 17:49   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Easton, MD
Boat: 15' Catboat, Bristol 35.5
Posts: 3,510
Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlechay View Post
You know where "foolproof" comes from. That's what offshore sailing systems should be.
If it was foolproof we wouldn't be able to get near it. We need a little bit of risk to make it interesting.
kmacdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
furling, single, singlehanding

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: Roller furling for head sail and roller furling for main cealpotts Classifieds Archive 0 20-09-2013 07:55
furling main sail mast into normal main usage? andreavanduyn General Sailing Forum 9 20-02-2009 08:52
furling main sail mast into normal main usage? andreavanduyn General Sailing Forum 1 10-02-2009 08:06

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:54.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.