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Old 21-11-2016, 05:13   #226
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Littlechay View Post
Seems to me that there is a lot of arguing without actually using the MK I eyeball here.

The furling system was in mast right?

Look at the pic - it seems to be mostly out of the mast.

Something definitely broke.
No doubt about that. They say that it was the case.
But the reliability of a system has not to do only with how it works before it breaks downs but also with the possibilities of breaking down.

A in mast furling system is much more complicated, has much more mechanical parts that can malfunction or break than a traditional slab reefing system and it is also for that reason less reliable.

Note that I don't see anything wrong regarding complex systems that can make life easier for sailors, like electric winches or hydraulic or electric furlers, if they have a manual back up if thing go wrong.

The problem here is, that, contrary to in boom furling, there is no manual back up when a in mast furler jams with the sail out: No way to bring the sail down in a a relatively easy way and the problems that can come from that can be very serious.

Not saying also that in boom system does not work well almost all the times. What I am saying, and it seems obvious, is that a traditional system is more reliable (that's why voyage boats use it) and that are known cases of sails heavily jammed on in mast furling masts, some in boats with experienced crews.

It increases risks, specially in bluewater sailing, where help is not readily available, but sailing is about risk management and offshore sailing implies always some risk, being it related with the size of the boat, stability of the boat, strength of the boat, condition of the boat and boat systems.

I never said that it was not an acceptable risk for sailing offshore. To each one the risks one is willing to take and the ways one seems fit to minimize it.
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Old 21-11-2016, 06:27   #227
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Yes, Hood. Try it some time! I know Selden are a bear, and I'm sure you get even more numbskull charterers there than we do here.
I don't have the pleasure to meet with a Hood in mast furling jammed , im sure after see the pictures that the hood mast is a smart design concerning jams , and I take your point for future references as usual, the problem in my opinion is that most of the market or at least a huge % is filled with cheap junk in hands of troglodites .. and yes my friend I don't know in your location but here charter parties are like WTF!!!!
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Old 21-11-2016, 06:28   #228
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
See I never knew that, the fact you can pull the sail and furling rod down through the bottom.

It looks like I accidentally just purchased a boat, an offer I made a while back that was rejected has now been accepted. Suddenly alot more interested in inmast furling...lol.

Has anyone had experience with the sparcraft in mast furling? Good bad?



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You can remove the furling rod on a Hood furler, I can't comment on other units since I have no experience with others.
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Old 21-11-2016, 06:39   #229
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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One of the systems he mentions is Selden that is one of the more common and has been pointed here as one of the best and equips not only mass production boats as well as luxury cruisers like Halberg Rassy, Najad, most Oyster and many others.
Selden is a step fwd v the cheap crap , but its a piece of **** anyway, the slab classic reefing spars are ok , but the in mast furling have isues to, first of all the foil white plastic cover is out of stock by selden or difficult to order , the cover at the middle joint in the foil for some reason peel off and then imposible to drop the mainsail because the top bearing crash with the joint, the solution?? unstep the mast...
And good luck ordering a new foil cover section...

The furl gear is usually worn out with some years of winch service thx to a big clearance betweens pinions..

And the bottom foil section is screwed in top SS portion of the turnbuckle,, aluminium v SS,, regular maintenance or corrosion permafrost everything...
And to end it, if ha bad jam is in order, the only way to free the sail without cut it in pieces is to unstep the spar , disconnect the mast head, and pull the whole furler with the jammed sail by the head.. Not very clever....
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Old 21-11-2016, 06:44   #230
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Littlechay View Post
When you say "just undo the tack" I understand that you are talking about the tack of the sail. However to slide the sail "off like a sock" you have to disconnect the bottom of the foil too.

How is the bottom of the foil connected in that system and how easy is it to disconnect? What is your system to control the bottom of the foil and stop it lashing and bashing the inside of the mast?
Actually it is incorrect to say you disconnect the tack of the sail. Rather you disconnect the end of foil that the sail is on. The end of the foil has jaws while the top of the motor is a flattened rod with hole that fits inside the foil jaws. You just ease off the main halyard to release some tension and remove the cotter pin that links the two parts. At this point the foil and (partially) furled sail can be pulled downward and out of the mast cavity.
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Old 21-11-2016, 06:48   #231
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Actually it is incorrect to say you disconnect the tack of the sail. Rather you disconnect the end of foil that the sail is on. The end of the foil has jaws while the top of the motor is a flattened rod with hole that fits inside the foil jaws. You just ease off the main halyard to release some tension and remove the cotter pin that links the two parts. At this point the foil and (partially) furled sail can be pulled downward and out of the mast cavity.
Thanks, that make more sense.
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Old 21-11-2016, 06:55   #232
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

If you take jamming, which can almost always be avoided on a furling mainsail by proper operation, out of the equation, then you must also think a roller furling jib or staysail are too risky to use on a cruising vessel because they might break? After all, the parts that could possibly break in a roller furling mainsail are almost identical to a roller furling jib and almost no-one would argue against using them for fear of them breaking.

I certainly would not suggest that Branson was "lying," more like being very tactful in his assessment of the predicament Ainslie got himself into during his honeymoon. Also, how could any vessel with a working engine and an anchor be at serious risk of being lost on a reef just because the mainsail couldn't be furled? He wasn't in a hurricane or other potentially dangerous situation. All he had to do was motor or sail using his jib to the lee of an island and drop his anchor and wait for the wind to subside. When conditions allowed, have his new bride pull him up the mast and with the outhaul loosened, wrap a few dock lines in a spiral around the mainsail and mast and then proceed to a location where a proper repair could be made. In wind conditions less than storm force, the worst case scenario means he has to replace his mainsail and repair whatever part broke. Not a real big deal, no need to get "rescued."
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Old 21-11-2016, 06:57   #233
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
If you take jamming, which can almost always be avoided on a furling mainsail by proper operation, out of the equation, then you must also think a roller furling jib or staysail are too risky to use on a cruising vessel because they might break? After all, the parts that could possibly break in a roller furling mainsail are almost identical to a roller furling jib and almost no-one would argue against using them for fear of them breaking.

I certainly would not suggest that Branson was "lying," more like being very tactful in his assessment of the predicament Ainslie got himself into during his honeymoon. Also, how could any vessel with a working engine and an anchor be at serious risk of being lost on a reef just because the mainsail couldn't be furled? He wasn't in a hurricane or other potentially dangerous situation. All he had to do was motor or sail using his jib to the lee of an island and drop his anchor and wait for the wind to subside. When conditions allowed, have his new bride pull him up the mast and with the outhaul loosened, wrap a few dock lines in a spiral around the mainsail and mast and then proceed to a location where a proper repair could be made. In wind conditions less than storm force, the worst case scenario means he has to replace his mainsail and repair whatever part broke. Not a real big deal, no need to get "rescued."

Jib furlers break to, but they are not encased in a aluminium slot.... and usually they warning you before disaster happen....
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Old 21-11-2016, 07:23   #234
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don't use their mainsail

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
As a final aside-most of the same type of charterers who are responsible for the vast majority of jams I have seen on equipment with even a modicum of maintenance, when they go out on boats without furling mains, do not ever hoist the main. Instead, they sail on the furling genny alone. I have seen many sailors, many of whom claim to be "experienced", do this. When asked, they say it's because the main is too much work short handed without a furler. Very very common. So despite the occasional newbie jam, I find it much better gear for a charter fleet, for new crew, or for shorthanded crew.
They don't hoist their mainsail ??

Wouldn't be some of the reasons or folks on these subject threads, would it?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...in-115978.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-148849.html
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Old 21-11-2016, 07:29   #235
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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[B]Selden is a step fwd v the cheap crap but its a piece of **** anyway, the slab classic reefing spars are ok...

The furl gear is usually worn out with some years of winch service thx to a big clearance betweens pinions..

And the bottom foil section is screwed in top SS portion of the turnbuckle,, aluminium v SS,, regular maintenance or corrosion permafrost everything...
And to end it, if ha bad jam is in order, the only way to free the sail without cut it in pieces is to unstep the spar , disconnect the mast head, and pull the whole furler with the jammed sail by the head.. Not very clever....
You are talking about the system most boats use, including high end ones like Halberg Rassy, Najad, many Oysters and many other top end boat.

Just gives more strength to the opinion that slab reefing, in what regards reliability of the system regarding malfunctions and breakage is a superior system, not to mention the impossibility to bring the sail down in case of a jam.
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Old 21-11-2016, 07:41   #236
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
If you take jamming, which can almost always be avoided on a furling mainsail by proper operation, out of the equation, then you must also think a roller furling jib or staysail are too risky to use on a cruising vessel because they might break? After all, the parts that could possibly break in a roller furling mainsail are almost identical to a roller furling jib and almost no-one would argue against using them for fear of them breaking.
..
I agree with Neil on that one and regarding jamming I agree with you too. We are talking here about that "almost always". Yes on more than 99% it works ok, sometimes, even, if very rarely, it jams and it has happened also to very experienced sailors on very remote locations, sailors that knew and used the system for years and operate it well. On those occasions on most boats you cannot bring the sail down and even on those that the furler can be taken out, I would say that a solo sailor would not be able to do that on the situations that would then do happen: bad weather. The consequences can be disastrous.

It is a relatively small risk that you take, or not using in mast furling, instead of slab reefing or boom reefing. The ones that minimize risks (voyage boats) use slab reefing that has also reliability advantages over boom reefing.

Sailors also take more or less risks with the type and size of boats that they sail bluewater. It is a problem of risk management. Each one takes the risks he feels comfortable with.
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Old 21-11-2016, 07:50   #237
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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You are talking about the system most boats use, including high end ones like Halberg Rassy, Najad, many Oysters and many other top end boat.

Just gives more strength to the opinion that slab reefing, in what regards reliability of the system regarding malfunctions and breakage is a superior system, not to mention the impossibility to bring the sail down in case of a jam.
Some folks believe Harken and Lewmar fitted in a brand new boat is top gear when the reality is Harken and Lewmar have top quality product as well some crap out there, I don't think Harken or for example Lewmar are selling the best meat to most production boats as well Selden have a spectrum of products ... Saying that if you want a really good winch , buy a Antal or a Andersen top of the line, same if you want a good inmast furling,, to me if Hallberg Rassy choose Selden , don't mean to much for me... And yes Slab reefing is more reliable and almost fools proofs but not 100% free of bugs...
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Old 21-11-2016, 08:12   #238
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You are talking about the system most boats use, including high end ones like Halberg Rassy, Najad, many Oysters and many other top end boat.

Just gives more strength to the opinion that slab reefing, in what regards reliability of the system regarding malfunctions and breakage is a superior system, not to mention the impossibility to bring the sail down in case of a jam.
Our Oyster is equipped with a Hood mast furling device which has a manual over- ride which I've needed to use twice during power failures. It was easy... Not impossible to use.

When I see you next summer, I'll demonstrate the system to you if you wish.
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Old 21-11-2016, 09:29   #239
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Our Oyster is equipped with a Hood mast furling device which has a manual over- ride which I've needed to use twice during power failures. It was easy... Not impossible to use.

When I see you next summer, I'll demonstrate the system to you if you wish.
Hi ken!

It was not that I was referring to. I was referring to the possibility of bringing the sail down when it is jammed with some part in. Even if there is a possibility to dismount the system without taking the mast out, like it seems to be with the one you have, it will not seem to be a thing you would be able to do alone, at least with some sea way. On a big boat like yours with a big and heavy sail up the roller, that should not be a light task, not even with the boat at the marina.
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Old 21-11-2016, 09:39   #240
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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...And yes Slab reefing is more reliable and almost fools proofs but not 100% free of bugs...
There is nothing absolutely malfunction proof, everything will need maintenance and breakage can always occur, but there are systems more reliable than others.

On one of the first one line Selden boom systems, 14 years ago I got a line stuck in the interior of the boom, it seems at least partially by my fault: I was using better quality ropes with a smaller diameter and that was what cause the jam inside the boom.

I was sailing solo and I had to sail for two days with the main on the 2th reef. By luck the wind was always over 15K and it was not a problem because the boat was light and I could still sail reasonably fast.

But there are problems and problems. Here the problem was that I could not raise the full sail, a bit like a boom furled jammed, but I had no difficulty at all to lower the main and if that was the case it would be a much, much bigger problem.
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