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Old 18-11-2016, 23:28   #181
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The video of the slab reefing boat speaks for itself. His "headsail was jammed," too much main sail deployed without a way to quickly reef it in more, and the fellow is lucky the seas were flat. Add even ten foot waves to the mix, and he might not have been so fortunate when knocked on his side.

It doesn't appear to me that slab reefing is always easier, safer and more reliable.
Yep, proof positive that slab reefing has problems...not.

We do not know anything about that boat, Ken. Perhaps it is like mine, and should have had no headsail up under those conditions. Seems that he coulda, shoulda reefed the headsail if he was overpowered, or gone to a storm jib. I saw nothing that indicated that he should have further reefed his mainsail.

Using that video to demonstrate the evils of slab reefing is not convincing of anything except your apparent belief that videos taken out of context are good means of obfuscation.

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Old 18-11-2016, 23:46   #182
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

I have also seen with my own eyes the result of in-mast furling jams. A big Swan came into the anchorage in Isla Mujeres, dropped the hook, and spent 4-5 hours clearing the jam with crew up the mast. The title of this thread is whether furling mains are safe when SINGLEHANDING, and you would have to be superhuman to clear a jam by yourself.

Cancel that--even superhumans need help

Ben Ainslie and Georgie Thompson rescued from BOAT on Necker Island | Daily Mail Online
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Old 19-11-2016, 01:56   #183
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I have also seen with my own eyes the result of in-mast furling jams. A big Swan came into the anchorage in Isla Mujeres, dropped the hook, and spent 4-5 hours clearing the jam with crew up the mast. The title of this thread is whether furling mains are safe when SINGLEHANDING, and you would have to be superhuman to clear a jam by yourself.

Cancel that--even superhumans need help

Ben Ainslie and Georgie Thompson rescued from BOAT on Necker Island | Daily Mail Online

I think that picture may answer the OPS question.
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Old 19-11-2016, 03:00   #184
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Yep, proof positive that slab reefing has problems...not.

We do not know anything about that boat, Ken. Perhaps it is like mine, and should have had no headsail up under those conditions. Seems that he coulda, shoulda reefed the headsail if he was overpowered, or gone to a storm jib. I saw nothing that indicated that he should have further reefed his mainsail.

Using that video to demonstrate the evils of slab reefing is not convincing of anything except your apparent belief that videos taken out of context are good means of obfuscation.

Jim
I've used all three methods of mainsail reefing on sailboats we've owned. Slab, roller boom and in-mast. Our Oday had slab reefing. On our Hunter, I was able to even compare the Profurl roller boom on ours to my friends slab reefing on an identical Hunter 450, and on the Oyster, the same comparison between ours with in-mast to an Oyster 56 with slab reefing.

I don't really care what other people use for themselves, I'm only participating on this thread to help clear up some of the blind ignorance others who've never owned in-mast furling systems seem to enjoy contributing. Slab reefing is not without it's problems, and in-mast systems aren't "fool-proof," so the answer must be... don't be a fool or let a fool furl your in-mast furling main, otherwise one can expect good reliability.

People can make up their own minds instead of being preached to by "old school" zealots who offer up only one solution.
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Old 19-11-2016, 03:29   #185
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
...

My friend Charlie provides a first hand account of his experience with our system, I've provided several videos, yet the skeptics will still doubt the safety and seek out ways to un-stick the jams that most of us will never experience.

So here's an example of what can happen with the so-called safer method of slab reefing when someone can't get their sails down in a timely manner. I'll take the reliability of in-mast furling over this situation anyday. The fellow in this video is just lucky the seas were flat, otherwise he'd probably be dead due to not being able to furl either of his sails.

What a mess!
I don't understand your point here. Look again at the video. The guy has not any problem with the main that is reefed and as the movie says on subtitles , he is heaving to and has a problem with the genoa (not the mainsail) getting stuck on the shrouds.

He is not trying to furl anything, even if I don't understand why he is heaving to, unless if for doing something and has to leave the wheel. It seems to me that the boat has too much genoa, for sailing and for heaving to. Anyway the problem as nothing to do with the main or reefing the main.

On a traditional reefing system there is no problem bringing the sail down, if one has a retrieving line on the top of the sail (brought to the cockpit).
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Old 19-11-2016, 03:46   #186
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The video of the slab reefing boat speaks for itself. His "headsail was jammed," too much main sail deployed without a way to quickly reef it in more, and the fellow is lucky the seas were flat. Add even ten foot waves to the mix, and he might not have been so fortunate when knocked on his side.

It doesn't appear to me that slab reefing is always easier, safer and more reliable.
Ken the headsail is not jammed. It is stuck on the shrouds. It would be easy to release it, contrary to a jam on a furler. Anyway we are talking here about the headsail. What has it to do with the mainsail?

It is not the mainsail that it is too much deployed, it is the genoa that it is too much deployed. It is not even had been rolled to the size of a jib. If that had been made it would not have been stuck. Again, it is about the headsail, not the mainsail and the video is not about reefing but about to heave to.
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Old 19-11-2016, 03:54   #187
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I have also seen with my own eyes the result of in-mast furling jams. A big Swan came into the anchorage in Isla Mujeres, dropped the hook, and spent 4-5 hours clearing the jam with crew up the mast. The title of this thread is whether furling mains are safe when SINGLEHANDING, and you would have to be superhuman to clear a jam by yourself.

Cancel that--even superhumans need help

Ben Ainslie and Georgie Thompson rescued from BOAT on Necker Island | Daily Mail Online


"Sir Richard Branson claims staff from his Necker Island retreat had to rescue Olympic sailor Sir Ben Ainslie after he ran into trouble sailing in the area on his honeymoon. The Virgin boss said the four-times gold medallist ran into difficulties when a furling system, which controls the sail being rolled out, broke."

That is a funny one. I thought that happened only to inexperienced sailors
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Old 19-11-2016, 05:57   #188
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Thank you Beiland, yes those pics clear a lot the confusion to me, to be honest I just see few isues like you say for example the spar trough the cabin at the bridge deck,, and I don't see this idea cheap in any way,,, 3 furlers, lots of rigging, maybe a shorter spar but let me tell you that those extra feet in a conventional mast don't make to much a diference after all, in terms of cost, the idea to furl and reef sails easy is ok to me, downwind performance?? I'm still looking at the images... I mean take nuts to propose such a rig, and I wish you good luck,...

....maybe making cost numbers its a good way if this is a viable option or not... against a conventional rig... Cheers.
It wasn't a cost issue with me but rather a real questioning of effectiveness of the main-sail aerodynamically, associated with all the gear we had to invent to handle that mainsail,...in-mast furling, boom furling, bendy mast, rotating mast, boom vangs, square tops, multi-purchase mainsheets, and their quick releases, elaborate travelers, roller bearing mast cars, special full length battens, etc, etc.

All the while realizing that the mainsail itself is a great 'provider' for a more efficient headsail. So why not substitute a roller furling staysail in its place?...so I chose to call it a 'mainstaysail'

************************
...a posting I made concerning this issue of sail interaction between the mainsail and the headsail....

Hello Tom,
First let me say that I very highly respect your opinion, and I have learned a lot from you...so don't give up on a total conversion of me yet.

I was not trying to 'put words in your mouth'. I will quote some of your previous postings that led me to believe, that like myself, you see the interaction of the two-element sail system to be advantagous to the headsail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tspeer
It doesn't appear that the forward quarter of the mainsail is directly contributing a great deal, but you can get a sense of how the jib benefits from the presence of the main, making the combination more powerful. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...09&postcount=8

Quote:
Originally Posted by tspeer
In upwind sailing, if the maximum aerodynamic L/D is below stall, it may pay to trim the rig for maximum lift instead of maximum L/D, even though the aerodynamic drag angle will increase. The added lift can improve the hull's L/D and reduce the hydrodynamic drag angle more than the loss in the aerodynamic drag angle, and improve performance.

In general, for the kinds of boats we're talking about, the windage is so high that the rig will stall before it reaches maximum L/D. So there's benefit in improving the maximum lift as well as the L/D of the rig alone. But the really big gain may come from reducing windage.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=111366&postcount=94


Quote:
Originally Posted by tspeer
The theoretical effectiveness of the headsail is not due to its cleaner leading edge. It's due to its interaction with the mainsail. The mainsail gives a boost to the head sail, and the headsail reduces the lift of the mainsail. It's exactly the same as lee-bowing your competitor - the jib gets a lift from the main, and the main gets a header from the jib. But the effectiveness of the whole combination is increased, so there's a net gain.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...&postcount=152


Quote:
Originally Posted by posting #115
…. Most boats have so much windage that the maximum L/D occurs above stall onset. So that's a big reason why you want to raise the maximum lift as high as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by posting#109
Multiple surfaces properly shaped and arranged can produce a higher maximum lift than any single surface of the same chord. For a more in-depth discussion, search this forum for A.M.O Smith's "High Lift Aerodynamics".

Quote:
Originally Posted by posting#92
… I think you ought to consider the planform area of the main and jib together when talking about aspect ratio. They really act more like one multi-element airfoil than separate foils.

Brian added: key word…multi-element airfoil, not just single airfoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by posting#64
.. Exactly. The main does indeed make the jib act like it's got a flap deflected. This is why people find that jibs are more powerful than mainsails of the same area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by posting#60
… The main really does transfer lift to the jib. The combination of the two is more effective than the same area allocated to either one separately. This is true even if both of the elements are good performers in their own right.

Quote:
Any study of rig effectivness points out that on a per-area basis, jibs are more effective than mainsails. That leads to the conclusion that rigs would better if they were all jib - hence the mast aft rig. What these studies often fail to point out is the effectiveness of the jib comes from its interaction with the main. On its own, it doesn't perform as well. And theoretically the main suffers in the exchange, making it look worse. But the combination is more than either sail acting in isolation.
...and finally excerpted from aerodynamicist and North Sails consultant Paul Bogataj’s paper, “How Sails Work” http://www.northsailsod.com/articles/article6-1.html
‘Sails in Combination’, “Each sail by itself is much simpler than the combination of a foresail and mainsail as in the sloop rig. The sails are operating so close to each other that they both have significant interaction with the other. The most interesting feature of this is that the two sails together produce more force to pull the boat than the sum of their forces if they were each alone.
The foresail of a sloop rig operates in the upwash of the mainsail. The wind as far upstream as the luff of a genoa is influenced by the upwash created by the mainsail. Hence, a jib or genoa in front of a mainsail has a higher flow angle than it otherwise would have by itself, causing an increase in the amount of force that the forward sail produces. So, while the mainsail is experiencing detrimental interference from the foresail, the foresail benefits from the interference of the mainsail. Notice that more air is directed around the curved leeward side of the foresail. This causes higher velocity (lower pressure) and more force. The net result is that the total force of the two-sail system is increased, with the foresail gaining more than the mainsail loses

sourced from Sail Aerodynamics
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Old 19-11-2016, 07:27   #189
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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"Sir Richard Branson claims staff from his Necker Island retreat had to rescue Olympic sailor Sir Ben Ainslie after he ran into trouble sailing in the area on his honeymoon. The Virgin boss said the four-times gold medallist ran into difficulties when a furling system, which controls the sail being rolled out, broke."

That is a funny one. I thought that happened only to inexperienced sailors
What we see in the photo necessitated a rescue at sea? Now that's funny.

He most likely was not "experienced" using that specific furling system, or like the caption read.. it "broke." Which doesn't mean all furling systems will break and necessitate emergency rescue.
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Old 19-11-2016, 07:34   #190
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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What we see in the photo necessitated a rescue at sea? Now that's funny.
They don't say were the rescue was. The photo shows the boat after the rescue with a team trying to clear the jam.

The point here was that a super sailor (used to climb masts) was at sea with a duo crew and had to ask for help because it had the in mast furler jammed and was not able to sort it out alone ore with the help of the other crew member.

I bet he tried hard and I bet he was quite embarrassed regarding asking for help
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Old 19-11-2016, 10:11   #191
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

When we did the Tonga to New Zealand passage last year friends on 3 different boats had problems with their in-mast main furlers. 2 could not get the sail fully furled and one could not get the sail all the way out. The one who couldn't get the sail full was due to chafe and corrosion in the lower drum. The other two needed re-cutting the mains. These were boats that crossed the Pacific the same year, so the crews were reasonably experienced.

My bad story with an in-mast main furling was off the coast of Oregon on a delivery of a brand new Caliber 47 from Seattle to San Francisco. We were off Cape Blanco getting our asses handed to us. Heading downwind with steep seas 12-15ft+. Not sure the wind as the wind instruments weren't working. Probably high 30's. It was nighttime and it was getting hard to steer so we decided to shorten the main more. The last two times we reefed it it went well. This time it turned into ClusterFk. In the process of trying to furl while off the wind the rigid boom vang folded in half. After this I decided to turn up into the wind to furl. In the process of turning up we took a wave that landed dead center on the companionway and sent a river of water down below kinda surprising the off watch soaking everything in its path. Ended up having to turn the engine on to hold us upwind long enough to furl. I fully admit and I did was inexperienced with the system and made mistakes. This kinda soured me on in-mast furlers. On my current boat I would have been able to go to the mast and put in a second reef with the slab reefing without having to turn into those seas and endanger the boat and crew.
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Old 19-11-2016, 16:29   #192
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

An "'old school' zealot", eh? My, my. Might this be an attempt to manipulate opinion, based on ageism?

The OP was asking about in mast furling for use by a singlehander. I think those of us who are used to having the backup of a partner on board really need to put ourselves in the shoes of the singlehander. I, too, have experience of friends who've had trouble with their in mast furling, and I just don't see how a singlehander can safely go aloft in a seaway to fix it for himself, there's this need to be two places at once. And aloft in a seaway, beats up your body, as well as being somewhat scary.

If we limit the discussion to the times when it goes pear shaped, I think it is safer by far for the singlehander to have slab reefing. Take a peek at Nereida, the Najad that Jeanne Socrates is sailing off the PNW coast now. No in mast furling. Now, she's been around before, she's not lacking for funds, so she could have refit with it if she had thought it practical for her use. She didn't. Perhaps she's also in the safer by far for a singlehander category of thought.

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Old 19-11-2016, 16:46   #193
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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An "'old school' zealot", eh? My, my. Might this be an attempt to manipulate opinion, based on ageism?

The OP was asking about in mast furling for use by a singlehander. I think those of us who are used to having the backup of a partner on board really need to put ourselves in the shoes of the singlehander. I, too, have experience of friends who've had trouble with their in mast furling, and I just don't see how a singlehander can safely go aloft in a seaway to fix it for himself, there's this need to be two places at once. And aloft in a seaway, beats up your body, as well as being somewhat scary.

If we limit the discussion to the times when it goes pear shaped, I think it is safer by far for the singlehander to have slab reefing. Take a peek at Nereida, the Najad that Jeanne Socrates is sailing off the PNW coast now. No in mast furling. Now, she's been around before, she's not lacking for funds, so she could have refit with it if she had thought it practical for her use. She didn't. Perhaps she's also in the safer by far for a singlehander category of thought.

Ann
You're entitled to your opinion just as I am, so just possibly.... the OP needs to hear from someone like me who singlehands most of the time and is also one who has used all three types of systems, and not from just a few "old school zealots" who've only used slab reefing and continue to promote the "old school" ideas.

I don't care what Mrs. Socrates uses on her boat any more than I care what anyone else uses.

I'm personally aware of a slab reefing system on a friend's Oyster 56 that failed badly when the main halyard jammed badly between the two blocks at the top of the mast. According to the lame logic expressed by some on this thread.... nobody should ever again use slab reefing because Ken knows of one case where it failed and was necessary for someone to climb the mast to sort it out. Ridiculous.

BTW: I have mast climbing gear onboard just in case I do need to climb the mast when I'm alone, and so far....I've haven't needed to use it except to practice.
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Old 19-11-2016, 17:26   #194
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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You're entitled to your opinion just as I am, so just possibly.... the OP needs to hear from someone like me who singlehands most of the time and is also one who has used all three types of systems, and not from just a few "old school zealots" who've only used slab reefing and continue to promote the "old school" ideas.

I don't care what Mrs. Socrates uses on her boat any more than I care what anyone else uses.

I'm personally aware of a slab reefing system on a friend's Oyster 56 that failed badly when the main halyard jammed badly between the two blocks at the top of the mast. According to the lame logic expressed by some on this thread.... nobody should ever again use slab reefing because Ken knows of one case where it failed and was necessary for someone to climb the mast to sort it out. Ridiculous.

BTW: I have mast climbing gear onboard just in case I do need to climb the mast when I'm alone, and so far....I've haven't needed to use it except to practice.
I also have owned and serviced boats with all 3 types of systems. IMHO, each system has merits & demerits and is only as good as the person(s) operating and maintaining the system. Prior to the purchase of my current boat that has in mast furling, I was a die hard slab reefing adherent and purchased the boat in spite of the inmast furling as she had excellent quality & other features/characteristics that I wanted. Now, after sailing (most of which is single handing) with the inmast furling system for 4 years, my opinion has changed. The system has great merit & I enjoy mine.
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Old 19-11-2016, 17:31   #195
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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...An "'old school' zealot", eh? My, my. Might this be an attempt to manipulate opinion, based on ageism?....

If we limit the discussion to the times when it goes pear shaped, I think it is safer by far for the singlehander to have slab reefing. Take a peek at Nereida, the Najad that Jeanne Socrates is sailing off the PNW coast now. No in mast furling. Now, she's been around before, she's not lacking for funds, so she could have refit with it if she had thought it practical for her use. She didn't. Perhaps she's also in the safer by far for a singlehander category of thought.

Ann
It is not only Nereida. 3 years ago sail magazine made a search to know what were the boats more popular on the ARC and on the Caribbean 1500 and made a list of the favorite boats among cruisers and one of them was the Jeanneau 54DS. They said:

"What is it about this design that makes it such an attractive bluewater boat? Conceived as an all-round performance cruiser, the 54DS obviously struck a chord with the passagemaking crowd. The eye-catching, swooping lines of its superstructure were quite a sensation during its debut in 2003, but its blend of generous accommodations, solid build quality and powerful, predictable performance sealed the deal for many owners. Designed by Jacques Fauroux, the 54DS came with a deep-draft keel and a standard in-mast furling mainsail; an optional full-battened main was the choice of most long-distance cruisers."
http://www.sailmagazine.com/boats/de...ruising-boats/


I posted on this thread a movie with boats going out for doing the ARC and a surprising number of new boats had single line reefing systems on traditional masts. Many that buy new mass production boats and intend to use them offshore prefer the traditional reefing system (with single line reefing) for reliability and performance reasons. That is why all mass production builders, that sell more boats with in mast furling, offer also the traditional reefing system (with one line reefing).














There is nothing old about these boats, they are all very recent main market mass produced boats and they are still offered with an optional single line slab reefing system.
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