Cruisers Forum
 


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-01-2018, 06:33   #136
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,363
Re: Thunderflash

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
I haven't used the Mk 5 but if the Mk 4 is similar to the military issue version which we also called Mk 4, then at that price a box full on board would be very useful to have. Attach a small lead weight and they make excellent diver recall device too.

In terms of power I have met an instructor with 3 fingers missing when he didn't let go quickly enough. They will also flatten a standard aluminium mess tin completely flat if placed on top of a real thunderflash.

I am surprised you can buy them in the UK.

Thunderflash Mark 5 TLSFx Pyrotechnics | ISO Approved | Milsim Pyro | Paintball

Thanks; hot tip!

They are also made as 12 ga shells which can be fired from a shotgun.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is online now  
Old 24-01-2018, 06:39   #137
Senior Cruiser
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,749
Images: 2
pirate Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
"Bear Country" is apparently the whole area.

Ittoqqortoormiit is the number one place in Greenland for polar bear conflicts with multiple incidents a year -- 6 polar bears killed by humans defending themselves just in 2012, just in Ittoqqortoormiit. So it's not "occasional trips"; it's the whole cruise, and the issue is not a joke.
Did/Do not think it is.. that's why I said even with a guide I would want to carry my own gun.. there's places outside Greenland and the States with dangerous wildlife on the large size.. and I've seen so called hunters behave like the crowd on 'Friends' when charged.
__________________

You can't beat a people up for 75 years and have them say.. "I Love You.. ".
"It is better to die standing proud, than to live a lifetime on ones knees.."

A Politician Never Bites the Hand that Feeds..
boatman61 is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 08:34   #138
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,363
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

This is useless speculation before going to the course, but I am finding it fun reading and thinking about choosing the right gun for this.

It's interesting to me that half the people on here tell me that I'll die if I try to use a shotgun on an ice bear, and the other half tell me that a shotgun is the way to go.

A friend of mine who is a sailor and gun nut wrote to me to say not to use a shotgun, but if I do, use Brenneke slugs.

So I read up on them, and it seems that they are pretty fearsome, compared favorably to rounds from a 45-70 big game gun.

Talked about here:

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/wh...g-down.228530/

Q: "What will a Brenneke 12-gauge slug bring down?"

A: Anything you fire it at. Seriously. I have long been a proponent of this cartridge as a result of my observations of having shot game with it. I use the 2 3/4" inch load however. The slugs are not designed to expand, and significant deformation is not noted even when heavy bone is encountered. It is a hard alloy. The result is usually a one inch, perfectly straight wound channel. These slugs are seldom recovered from deer sized animals, even when shot lengthwise. I have seen over 4 feet of penetration through a single animal. Because of the squared off shoulder of the design, energy transfer and tissue destruction seem fairly optimally balanced with the extreme penetration. And they seem to kick a whole lot less than comprable domestically produced slugs. Accuracy with the shorter 2 3/4" loads is astounding. Out of a smoothbore slug barrel, they litterally land on top of one another at 50 yards. For big game under 100 steps, it is tops.


"
The Brenneke Rottweil magnums (for rifled barrels) are 600 grain slugs, with a muzzle velocity of 1760 fps. I thinks this makes 3000 ft/lbs at the muzzle. Trumps nearly all 45-70 loads.

"As for real world comparisons, a friend and myself shot two pigs in the last two weeks.
"His went down with a 300 gr factory 45-70 like it was hit by a truck.
"Mine went down with the above slug like it was hit by a larger truck.
There is a tremendous amount of shock imparted to the pig from this slug round. When I get my pics back, I will post them. My shot placement between the neck and shoulder was by no means perfect, but the pig died on the spot."


If a shotgun can be made suitable for this, it will solve a bunch of problems with permissions, and also, cost.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is online now  
Old 24-01-2018, 08:53   #139
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,136
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Dockhead-
Something to consider about unconventional calibers and rounds: They won't be sold at your local supplier. Which is not to say you couldn't get whatever you need, somewhere, but with a conventional round like 30-06 practically any gun shop or "general store" that supplies hunters will be stocking them. With more specialized rounds, you will have to chase down a local supply and stow them on board before you leave, and sometimes just bringing ammunition across borders is problematic.
Not saying it can't or shouldn't be done--but it needs to be looked into. And if you're using a specialized 12 gauge round, remember to take a couple of boxes to the range to see how it shoots, in the gun you'll be shooting with.
There are all sorts of 12g rounds, including "breeching rounds" meant to tear off door hinges. Rubber bullets, armor piercing, you name it.
But if the Greenland rules say "Rifle", a shotgun won't make it. And since big game (moose, elk, bear, mountain sheep) hunters seem to prefer "rifle"...maybe the 12g is just as good when you're only planning to use it up close. If it will meet the regulation.
hellosailor is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:00   #140
Registered User
 
Fiveslide's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Boat: JBW club 420, MFG Bandit, Snark
Posts: 871
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Secondary to and along with the shotgun, I'd pick up a Judge Public Defender Poly and load it with something like the image below. Check out the exit wound on that pumpkin, that will have the bear bleeding out in a hurry! If it gets past your shotgun, just point the judge as the bear gets close and start squeezing, unload all five into it.



Fiveslide is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:06   #141
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: President 43 Sportfish
Posts: 4,105
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

So much bad information in this thread it should become a sticky.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:07   #142
Registered User
 
Juho's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Finland
Boat: Nauticat 32
Posts: 974
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I have seen active combat service and to the best of my recollection, the screaming continued to be a large part of the experience.
Police has nowadays sound based devices for crowd control. It would make a lot of sense to use such devices also for polar bear control. I'm sure polar bears do not want to destroy their hearing, and will therefore avoid such noisy pray . That's one more tool for the recommended arsenal.
Juho is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:08   #143
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 10,208
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveslide View Post
Secondary to and along with the shotgun, I'd pick up a Judge Public Defender Poly and load it with something like the image below. Check out the exit wound on that pumpkin! If it gets past your shotgun, just point the judge as the bear gets close and start squeezing, unload all five into it.



A the distance a Judge would be of any use you would be a bear meal.
Cadence is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:14   #144
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,363
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juho View Post
Police has nowadays sound based devices for crowd control. It would make a lot of sense to use such devices also for polar bear control. I'm sure polar bears do not want to destroy their hearing, and will therefore avoid such noisy pray . That's one more tool for the recommended arsenal.
Yes, that's bear bangers.

I have read that they are very effective when used correctly. It sounds to me like scaring them off with bear bangers would be Plan A in any case, and very likely to succeed, it seems like. Blowing the bear away by shooting it through the brain with a 45-70 or Brenneke slug would be a last resort.

There are a variety of bear bangers available, and it sounds like the 12 ga ones would be particularly good since you could aim them better. Or maybe it would be possible to buy an actual flash/bang grenade -- that would surely be the ultimate bear banger.

In any case, this will take study and training to be sure of being able to do it right.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is online now  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:17   #145
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,363
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Similar discussion, but among gun nuts rather than sailors:

Polar bear defense


The different opinions are similar to what has been expressed here, but there's a lot of support for using 12 ga with slugs.

Yet another advantage for me, personally, to using a 12 ga is that I have quite a bit of experience with them and from childhood. I won't be learning a new gun from scratch, and there is much less risk of getting confused with the gun in a tense moment. I've shot with 30.06's (my dad had one), and I'm a good shot with it, but I've never shot a big game rifle and I think the learning curve might not be so shallow. I'm ready to put in some range time, but I only have half a year.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is online now  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:30   #146
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,363
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Dockhead-
Something to consider about unconventional calibers and rounds: They won't be sold at your local supplier. Which is not to say you couldn't get whatever you need, somewhere, but with a conventional round like 30-06 practically any gun shop or "general store" that supplies hunters will be stocking them. With more specialized rounds, you will have to chase down a local supply and stow them on board before you leave, and sometimes just bringing ammunition across borders is problematic.
Not saying it can't or shouldn't be done--but it needs to be looked into. And if you're using a specialized 12 gauge round, remember to take a couple of boxes to the range to see how it shoots, in the gun you'll be shooting with.
There are all sorts of 12g rounds, including "breeching rounds" meant to tear off door hinges. Rubber bullets, armor piercing, you name it.
But if the Greenland rules say "Rifle", a shotgun won't make it. And since big game (moose, elk, bear, mountain sheep) hunters seem to prefer "rifle"...maybe the 12g is just as good when you're only planning to use it up close. If it will meet the regulation.
Thanks; that's a good point. I would be careful of course to organize supply well and long before departure.

And for sure I would practice a lot with whatever setup I eventually choose. That's half the fun anyway! On the range here, and probably do some shooting every day when we're out in the field. We will need a good supply of ammunition.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is online now  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:35   #147
Registered User
 
Kelkara's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Vancouver Island
Boat: Hullmaster 27
Posts: 1,063
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
My read of the regulations that dock posted is that they are 'required' to have a gun on board while cruising almost all the west coast (except for two 'tourist zones'), not just while ashore in the parks.
My reading of the regs was different ...

They are only REQUIRED to have a gun in The National Park ... which is essentially all of the East coast North of 71N, but they are only RECOMMENDED to have a gun south of that.

They are REQUIRED to have an expedition permit for the all of the east coast (except for the two 'tourist zones'). But the firearm is not part of that requirement on the southern half of the coast.

They will need a Greenland firearms permit for whatever gun they bring ... If they are going to areas where they are required to have a gun then the rules say a 30-06 rifle ... but if he's only going to areas where a gun is recommended, then maybe they can choose a shotgun ... but it would be a good idea to ask the Greenland authorities to make sure he can get a permit/ammo for it ... although the rules for a 30-06 is probably because that is what the locals think is the best idea.
Kelkara is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:39   #148
MLC
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 321 32'
Posts: 18
Send a message via AIM to MLC
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Dockhead, go on this NRA training course you mentioned. It sounds perfect.

I have been hunting and shooting for 30 years. I have hunted in the US, Canada, South Africa, and Zimbabwe. I have not hunted dangerous game. Many of my family and friends have hunted Cape Buffalo, elephant, leopard, lion, black bears, and Kodiak bears. For your trip, I support the recommendations that others have made for a pump-action 12 gauge. I also support the recommendation that you carry two. I also support the recommendations for the marine versions of the Remington 870 or the Mossberg, though with adequate lubrication and storage I do not think the marine versions are a "must" have. I have done waterfowl hunting and other types of hunting in the rain and snow. Rust has not been a major issue. I own an 870 Express and an 870 Express Super Magnum Synthetic. I have an extra rifled barrel and an extra rifled barrel with a low power scope. I also have a rifled choke tube. The barrels are easily interchangeable without any tools. In my experience, the 870s are reliable in cold, wet, snowy, and muddy conditions. With the right slugs/sabots, I would bet my life that an 870 would be adequate to drop a charging polar bear within 50 yards. My guess is that 00 shot would turn the bear but would probably not be adequate to drop it. Obviously one keeps shooting until the bear turns or drops.

I own a bolt action 30-06 and would also trust that gun with my life but I would prefer a 12 gauge pump with 5 or 6 slug rounds for a charging polar bear.
__________________
Mark
MLC is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:42   #149
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 10,208
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Thanks; that's a good point. I would be careful of course to organize supply well and long before departure.

And for sure I would practice a lot with whatever setup I eventually choose. That's half the fun anyway! On the range here, and probably do some shooting every day when we're out in the field. We will need a good supply of ammunition.
I'm not sure the freeze factor from fare wouldn't be more of a concern than marksmanship?
Cadence is offline  
Old 24-01-2018, 09:56   #150
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,363
Re: I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
I'm not sure the freeze factor from fare wouldn't be more of a concern than marksmanship?
Typos? I can't figure out what this means.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Proper Crimp - One You Can Believe In btrayfors Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 60 28-09-2011 12:44
New Solar Power Alternative - If You Can Believe it svHyLyte Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 22 06-09-2011 22:55
Can You Believe It? 8 Kts! over40pirate Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 9 01-06-2009 14:15

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:02.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.