FIRE! Fight or Flight?

[Fence Man]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

This should take you to their blog on the accident, just found it myself.
VOYAGES OF SANDPIPER

That says more than 10 more pages of this thread ever will. Excellent read that should be rehashed often. Thanks for posting the link!

[Simi 60]

This one happened not far from us a few days back.
May make some reassess their procedure if they have one.

[oldjags]

The one thing that all fires have in common is the need for oxygen. If your initial attempts to extinguish a fire down below fail, get out of the cabin and close the companionway. And close all the hatches.

If you can't completely smother the fire by starving it of oxygen, you can at least slow it down enough to give you some time to get the life raft or dinghy deployed.

We once looked at a boat for sale that had had an internal fire when the battery charger overheated and caught fire. The boat was unoccupied at the time, and the fire burned a bulkhead and melted all the headliner in the boat. But then it went out as the boat was all closed up and the fire ran out of oxygen.

The fire wasn't even discovered until the owners came back weeks later.

[rmlarson1098]

Originally Posted by Boat Named Sue

Last week I watched this boat burn down on the lake where I keep my wakeboard boat. Boat was obviously a total loss and the fire was likely already out of control before it was noticed, but it led to a discussion among us of when to try to fight a fire vs. when to abandon ship.

What say you? At what point do you abandon ship (and call the insurance company)?

Columbia Basin Herald - Breaking News, Witnesses recount boat fire, rescue on Moses Lake

P.S. My first time getting drone shots of a boat on fire.

Could depend where I was at - a mile out of the marina is one thing, a thousand miles offshore quite another. And if there is gasoline involved (as in this fire it would appear) that can change the situation VERY quickly. Which is why I row my dinghy. I wouldn't have gasoline on my boat.
Fire extinguishers are relatively cheap compared to the alternative which is to have a fire get out of control. I have 3 below in a 30 foot boat; one forward that MIGHT allow me to fight my way out thru the companionway, and two aft. Plus a fire blanket in the galley. I'm a really bad cook...
And a 4th fire extinguisher in the cockpit!
I guess it would also depend on who was onboard with me. If I had a family, they need to be in a safe place maybe before playing fireman. Or do they? What if the fire is raging in the cockpit, and that's where all the PFD's are?
And the kids can't swim? Throw 'em in the sea and hope they learn fast?
I've seen a couple of yachts burn to the waterline, and it's awful. A plan is needed here, just like for 'man overboard' and just like for 'abandon ship'.
One should have a checklist here, but I don't I do tend to check the pressure weekly more or less as I'm rummaging around the boat. Also, using a fire extinguisher isn't exactly 'natural'. You can make the device less effective than it should be if you don't spray the powder/foam at the BASE of the fire with a sweeping motion.
Actually, I like my fire blanket. Works like a charm; I know from experience.
Oh, and I always keep the forward hatch clear. Especially when I'm cooking.

[thinwater]

I had a tiny electric fire once, where the PO connected wires under a carpet by just stuffing stripped wires into a spade quick-connect! I said "I smell smoke, and instantly the off-watch was up, tearing the boat apart, looking for the source. You see, we were off shore, and calling for help was not a great option. Fortunately it was minor and a splash of water put it out.


Which brings me to my point.


For non-fuel fires on a boat, the best answer is usually water. Dry chemical does NOT cool the fire or prevent it from reigniting. Several posters mentioned this. The electrical issue is easily resolved by pulling the main, and most times it is only 12V. You won't run out of water in 30 seconds. It won't chase you out of the cabin or result in a huge clean-up.


Not sayin' it's for everything. Fuel fires are a whole nuther' thing. But for cloth, wood, and fiberglass, there is nothing better than the cooling power of water. All you need is a bucket on a rope.


While you should certainly have extinguishers, a fire blanket and water are at least as important and more useful for practically everything other than an engine fire. Even with an engine fire, I'd be inclined to use water as part of the solution, to cool things down.


(I've put out a few incipient fires in refinery environments too. Refineries always have water and fire blankets handy.)

[TrentePieds]

Exactly, Thinwater :-)!

My long schmeer was not to tell people exactly what to do, but rather to demonstrate a way to think about these things BEFORE they happen, so you don't endanger your crew by going either catatonic or frenetically panicky if they happen.

TP

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Automatic Halon is great for an enclosed area. As long as someone does not open a hatch. Similar to a CO2 system. Starve it for air.

No, I know it seems like it’s starving it for air or O2 actually, but Halon works in far less concentration than that. If it didn’t, then it wouldn’t be any better than CO2. Halon somehow interferes chemically right at the fire / fuel interface and makes it so the fuel will no longer burn. Or that is how it has been explained to me anyway.
I’ll look for an explanation, cause I have only been told how it works is all. But a concentration of CO2 that will cause a fire to go out and not support combustion, also won’t support life I don’t think, but a concentration of Halon that will put out a fire, will. Or so I have been told.

[a64pilot]

A New Zealand organizations opinion, although it looks like a cut n paste, cause I have seen it almost word for word elsewhere
http://www.fireprotection.org.nz/inf...w-does-it-work

I can find that it chemically stops a fire, but can’t find an explanation of how exactly or does that. Have to go grill a steak or I’m in trouble

[TrentePieds]

This is germane, but still doesn't speak to the chemical reaction twixt Halon andire tht extinguished the fire.

https://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_2.htm#q1

TP

[StuM]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

A New Zealand organizations opinion, although it looks like a cut n paste, cause I have seen it almost word for word elsewhere
What is Halon and How Does it Work?

I can find that it chemically stops a fire, but can’t find an explanation of how exactly or does that. Have to go grill a steak or I’m in trouble

FWIW:

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/..._Extinguishers



Both Halon variants work by a combination of chemical and physical effects. The chemical effects, which are dominant in their overall effect, are achieved by the atoms in the gas directly inhibiting combustion in two different ways:

• Bromine, Iodine and Chlorine atoms act catalytically so that each atom participates repeatedly in the scavenging of important free radicals from the combustion gases.
• Fluorine atoms react with free radicals and form strong chemical bonds which neutralise combustion but can only do so once and are then “consumed.” The physical effects are both temperature reduction and dilution.

Temperature reduction occurs, whenever a non-reactive gas is added to a flammable gas, because the heat liberated by the reaction of oxygen molecules with a fuel source must be distributed into the overall environment. The rate of the combustive chemical reaction decreases rapidly with reductions in temperature and, if the concentration of added inert gas is high enough, the flame chemistry fails altogether.
Halon gas mixtures are not only inert but of low temperature when released from their pressurised state. Dilution is a simple matter of reducing the collision frequency of the oxygen and fuel source so that there is a reduction in chemical reaction rates. The magnitude of this effect, however, is relatively small compared to chemical inhibition and thermal effects, the former of these being the predominant one.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Fence Man

That says more than 10 more pages of this thread ever will. Excellent read that should be rehashed often. Thanks for posting the link!

Couple of big points in that story. I can’t imagine being 40 miles from land without everyone having life jackets on. And in nz, the guideline is that the liferaft should be deployable by anyone on the boat within 15 seconds. To me, that means that (in flat conditions) we need to be able to get to the liferaft and have it hanging over the lifelines within 10 seconds from anywhere. It’s a useful drill to practice.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Which brings me to my point.


For non-fuel fires on a boat, the best answer is usually water. Dry chemical does NOT cool the fire or prevent it from reigniting. Several posters mentioned this. The electrical issue is easily resolved by pulling the main, and most times it is only 12V. You won't run out of water in 30 seconds. It won't chase you out of the cabin or result in a huge clean-up.


Not sayin' it's for everything. Fuel fires are a whole nuther' thing. But for cloth, wood, and fiberglass, there is nothing better than the cooling power of water. All you need is a bucket on a rope.

I think it was Kenomac’s wife who came up with a way to attach a hose to the sink in the head so they have water for firefighting.
Following their lead I attach one of those cloth hoses to a spigot I have in my cockpit for fresh water wash downs. Then I have however much water so have in our fresh water tank to put something out.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Couple of big points in that story. I can’t imagine being 40 miles from land without everyone having life jackets on. And in nz, the guideline is that the liferaft should be deployable by anyone on the boat within 15 seconds. To me, that means that (in flat conditions) we need to be able to get to the liferaft and have it hanging over the lifelines within 10 seconds from anywhere. It’s a useful drill to practice.

Well US people are more lax I guess, I never have a vest on unless it bad weather, bad.
Then I don’t think they ever really made the decision to abandon the vessel. They first put the fire out, then it came back and they put it out again, smoke and extinguisher agent drove them out of the boat, where the Bimini erupted into flames and apparently burnt both of them before they could jump in the water.
I’m saying they never made any attempt to abandon, that decision was made for them I believe leaving them no time to get or do anything, it was jump or burn.

I think it’s likely I would have done the same, that is tried to save the boat, until it was too late.
Their accident and one or two other threads that I think Steady linked to is what made me get serious about the fire thing if you will.
This is not the first time it’s been brought up of course.

[Pelagic]

I have not read all the replies so this is just a general observations borne from experience in having advanced training to fight fires and from training others.

People Fear dangers they don't understand and have had no oportunity to practice ways of combating that danger.

Also, the key to successful firefighting is quick, knowledgeable and positive action to remove at least one component needed for a fire to continue.

It amazes me that the average yachtsman has never taken even a basic marine oriented fire fighting course, where they actually put out different types of major fires by themselves.

If they had, that panic and fear would be replaced with knowledge and teamwork.

On super yachts every one of my crew members (including junior stewardesses') must have a basic fire fighting certificate.

We build on that training on board with frequent drills and practice ashore with challenging scenarios, putting out actual fires.

Our challengies are far more complicated because of size, so we have proper equipment for breathing, foaming and fogging.

However on a small yacht, with basic tools and deck water available, quick intelligent action like positioning the fire downwind to minimize spreading are part of the training that will allow you to put out fires with confidence.

[Calif.Ted]

My wife compensates for her lack of fire fighting training by bringing a retired fireman along whenever she sails.
She graciously pointed out I was slower, weaker and more clumsy than I used to be so I don a PFD now when going to the mast to reef or flake the main. 40 miles offshore in the cockpit, no.