Fire extinguishers in 2020

[Wotname]

The OP has a trailer sailer, probably doesn't has an engine room or a bunch of very expensive electronics and is most likely to have a fibreglass hull.

If there is a fire on board and the fire blanket isn't sufficient, then he needs to extinguish ASAP otherwise he is swimming back to the trailer.

It is unlikely he has much room (or the wallet) to buy and store all the various extinguishers mentioned above.

A couple (or more) dry chemical extinguishers located in various parts of the boat is (IMO) by far the best solution. Small, cheap and effective for his purpose. Saves a long swim home and he will still have a hull to refit those new electronic gadgets into.

[xxxxx]

Originally Posted by Wotname

The OP has a trailer sailer, probably doesn't has an engine room or a bunch of very expensive electronics and is most likely to have a fibreglass hull.

If there is a fire on board and the fire blanket isn't sufficient, then he needs to extinguish ASAP otherwise he is swimming back to the trailer.

It is unlikely he has much room (or the wallet) to buy and store all the various extinguishers mentioned above.

A couple (or more) dry chemical extinguishers located in various parts of the boat is (IMO) by far the best solution. Small, cheap and effective for his purpose. Saves a long swim home and he will still have a hull to refit those new electronic gadgets into.

True, but OP asked for a non-messy alternative to the typical inexpensive extinguishers.

[Jammer]

Thank you for the replies so far.

Originally Posted by rslifkin

There are clean agent systems far safer than CO2. And Halon isn't the only choice there. FM-200 and Novec 1230 are both usable in a marine engine room. And both have a reasonable safety window between the concentration required to extinguish a fire and the concentration that will kill a person. So as long as the system is properly sized, it's not a death sentence if it gets dumped with a person in the engine room.

The safety profile of the various halogenated agents is, at best, debatable. These are all heavier-than-air gasses that accumulate in the lungs and are difficult to exhale. They also form, as I mentioned in the OP, some extremely toxic combustion byproducts if used in a fire. I have worked in machine rooms protected by halon systems, FM-200 systems, carbon dioxide bottles, and water. Even in IT/telecom there is a school of thought that water is the best choice because the cost of ownership and potential loss of life of the halon (etc) systems is higher than the cost (on an actuarial risk-adjusted basis) of equipment damage from the water.

As noted upthread CO2 makes people breathe more which provides warning properties as well as causing them to breathe in more air.

FWIW I specified 10# CO2 extinguishers for the labs at my workplace when this came up a year or two ago. But that is an electronics environment with sprinklers for backup if everything goes to hell.


My boat is modest. I have an Origo stove and an outboard motor. I do have a dedicated fuel locker. I do not have shore power or an inverter, and my DC electrical system is carefully maintained and tightly fused. I mostly think about cooking fires and stupid things like making a mistake when burning rope ends or working with heat shrink or solder.

[xxxxx]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The amount of Halon needed to completely extinguish a fire is no where near the amount that it takes suffocate you, there is a large gap, that’s why it’s used in confined areas that you may not be able to open a door and walk out of, like a cockpit or an armored vehicle.

Agreed. Halon is a more effective agent.

If the OP can legally aquire halon extinguishers, they'd be better.

Here they're illegal to use, give away, sell, or refill.

I really don't know about the USA, but since the Montreal Protocol was ratified by the UN, and the USA is part of the UN, I'd imagine they're heavily restricted.

[kas_1611]

Couple of things to consider when it comes to fires on boats.

Most important is they happen fast, really really fast. So whatever extinguishers you go with have got to be located in sensible places, easily accessible and there should be more than you think you need.

Second the idea is not about saving electronics or even the boat but saving life. A hull, fittings, electronics can all be replaced but your life or the lives of loved ones can not. Don't scrimp on safety when it comes to fires and don't take any risks with your life trying to fight them. if you have to abandon ship immediately.

I have 6 extinguishers on my 40ft. All dry powder as they are by far and away the easiest to store and use. I have 3 larger ones in the galley, under the nav table and in the cockpit locker and 3 smaller, hand held units in each of the cabins. I will probably get a couple more of these as they are small, easy to store and take up virtually no space. They may not put out a fire on their own but they might give me those vital seconds to get my arse out of Dodge.

Yes my electronics would be toast and it's a bugger to clean up but screw it I am alive.

Last point and this is a very important one with modern batteries. Lithium burns like a bitch and you need a specialist Class D extinguisher to stand any chance of putting that out. In fact many fire brigades/services around the world have stated they have no means of fighting Lithium battery fires in Electric Vehicles. They will literally just let them burn out.

If you have a laptop, a mobile phone or any number of electronic gizmos onboard you have Lithium batteries. If you've upgraded from Lead Acid/Gel/AGM house/engine/accessory batteries to LiFePO or Lithium Ion then you have a lot of Lithium onboard. Just worth considering.

[rslifkin]

For smaller lithium batteries, submerge the thing in water. Or throw it overboard if needed. Cooling the battery will slow / stop the reaction.

As far as I know, LiFePO batteries don't have the same failure mode as a typical phone or laptop li-ion (which I try to minimize on board).

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

For smaller lithium batteries, submerge the thing in water. Or throw it overboard if needed. Cooling the battery will slow / stop the reaction.

As far as I know, LiFePO batteries don't have the same failure mode as a typical phone or laptop li-ion (which I try to minimize on board).

I was talking about them catching fire due to a fire not necessarily failing themselves, which is a potential hazard true.

And Lithium, like all Alkali Metals, reacts with water releasing Hydrogen (explosive gas) and creating a potent Caustic fluid. Admittedly this might not be such an issue when it is locked up in a chemical compound but are you willing to risk it with a Li Ion battery and a bucket of water?

Whichever way if you have Lithium batteries on board you should consider a Class D fire extinguisher, especially if you have a lot of Lithium batteries.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

And Lithium, like all Alkali Metals, reacts with water releasing Hydrogen (explosive gas) and creating a potent Caustic fluid. Admittedly this might not be such an issue when it is locked up in a chemical compound but are you willing to risk it with a Li Ion battery and a bucket of water?

That issue is why they say to submerge it rather than just spraying it with water. By submerging, you can cool it enough that you no longer get a violent reaction. There's not much lithium metal in a li-ion battery anyway.

See the notes at the bottom of this page: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ns_with_li_ion

[rmlarson1098]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I am getting my trailer sailor ready for spring and have fire extinguishers on the brain. A question I am pondering is whether to obtain the typical inexpensive chandlery fire extinguishers, or upgrade to something that is more effective, less messy, or both.


One possible course of action I am considering is obtaining two inexpensive fire extinguishers, plus a fire blanket.


Background information and what has changed since the last thread

• A USCG approved AFFF (foam) extinguisher is now available, the Amerex B250CG. It is B-II rated, costs $315 including the bracket, 7" diameter, 25" high, about 25 pounds. They must be protected from freezing. This agent is broadly effective on all types of fires likely to occur on a boat.
• Despite the long-standing ban on new production, Halon 1211 remains legal for purchase and use in the USA as industrial and military stocks are recycled and repackaged. It cannot be imported into any nation under the Montreal Protocol, and cruisers crossing international borders have reported serious problems including confiscation and disposal charges.
• Not mentioned in other threads are the extremely toxic decomposition products that can be produced when Halon 1211, Halotron, or any other chlorinated hydrocarbon extinguishing agent can produce if used in a fire. Phosgene gas is the most serious of these. It has few warning properties and even brief exposures can lead to death or chronic health problems.

Regarding different types of dry chemical extinguishers

There are three chemical agents in widespread use.

• Monoammonium phosphate (MAP), usually sold as "ABC dry chemical." Widely used because it is effective on all types of fires, the problem with it is that it produces an acrid cloud of yellow dust when used in confined areas and makes a huge mess. Cleanup is complicated by the fact that it forms molten blobs when heated and by the fact that it is corrosive when damp or wet.
• Sodium bicarbonate, usually sold as "standard" dry chemical. It is half as effective as MAP on gas and oil, and not at all effective on ordinary combustibles.
• Potassium bicarbonate, "Purple K." Widely considered the most effective extinguishing agent on gas an oil. Not effective on ordinary combustibles. Cleanup is bad but not as bad as MAP.

Chandlery fire extinguishers are usually either MAP or sodium bicarbonate. Purple K is available from places that sell fire extinguishers. It went through a brief surge of popularity for recreational marine use in the 1970s and has sort of fallen into obscurity since. It is still in widespread use by the navy, oil refineries, airports, and other high-hazard locations.

Wow. That AFFF foam extinguisher is mighty big for a smaller sailboat, not to mention pricey! MAP for us, with a fire blanket in the galley. Pure cotton (bath towel maybe, but NO polyester) and wool is somewhat fire-resistant, and would be our first choice for a small fire rather than grabbing any fire extinguisher.
We keep an Army surplus wool blanket on the settee and again it could work for a small fire, including grease on the stove if the fire blanket failed. As long as there were no burning combustibles, as in kerosene, diesel, or gasoline.
Not long ago a sailboat caught on fire in the Sea of Cortez, while we were nearby in San Carlos. Thought to be an engine fire, by the time the skipper & crew realized smoke was coming from the companionway (they were up top at the time) they could not go below without being overcome by VERY acrid, biting smoke. They did try, although I can't recall if they even got to an extinguisher. The smoke burned their eyes and lungs so badly that it was immediately intolerable and all efforts to fight the fire by any means were quickly abandoned. This happened very fast, and several of the crew suffered burns before they abandoned ship, which involved jumping into the sea. I don't believe they even had time to launch a dinghy.
The GOOD news is that although the vessel burned to the waterline, all were rescued by other boats in the vicinity.
So. We like to think that we would fight a fire by whatever means available, and try to save our boat. Our snorkeling masks are hanging in a cockpit locker, and might allow a chance to see whats going on below, and maybe find a fire extinguisher - depending on how long one could hold their breath! Getting down low might help a bit. Maybe.
If we are below and forward (head or V-berth) and the fire is aft in the galley/engine room, our plan involves getting out thru the forward hatch. We do keep a extinguisher in the forward cabin, and the original thought was to 'fight our way out of the boat' to the companionway. That's changed as there is just too much going on back there in the way of combustibles, so unless it's a very small fire we practice crawling out thru the forward/overhead hatch. I especially like this 'drill' when we are naked and a little stoned, although my wife isn't so keen on it.
It's a good (great) idea to have a real, workable plan in place, and go over it carefully with crew. No matter what kind of extinguishers you chose, things can happen really fast when there is a fire in a confined space. I mean REALLY fast. And I can tell you this - it won't be like on TV, where there is some fire here, a few flames over there, with guys running around looking for people as flaming timbers fall around them. What there WILL be is intense smoke everywhere, and very quickly. You won't be able to see your hand in front of your face.
Good luck finding the right extinguishers for you, and stay safe.

[bcboomer]

The F-500 extinguisher was mentioned here last fall. At first blush it appears to be a very effective solution for a galley or engine fire.
Anybody know anything about them?

[keyway]

A ten lbs ABC sodium bicarbonate will safely extinguish of any kind of combustible. Yes there will be a mess to clean up. They are not very expensive. For smaller boats they provide the safety that you need. You can always carry two just in case.

[jimp1234]

These extinguishers aren't CG approved but I think are a good backup for ABC dry chem extinguishers. I started a thread last year on this topic.



https://maus-se.com/products/1001-1-maus-xtin-klein
https://elementfire.com/

[Waveguide]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

By far the most common fire in the cabin of a boat is in the galley.

Having once crewed on a boat the had a propane leak and minor explosion that singed the cook and set curtains alight (I ripped down and threw the curtains overboard): I will have no propane on my boat. I use only a microwave oven. I've never heard of one of those causing a fire.

All posts above about the destructive qualities of dry chemical extinguishers are true. Considering the consequent destruction, you might as well put out the fire with a sledgehammer.

There's plenty of water around. Why not try that first if it isn't a fuel fire?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

... Whichever way if you have Lithium batteries on board you should [NOT] consider a Class D fire extinguisher, especially if you have a lot of Lithium batteries.

NO!

How Do You Put Out a Lithium-Ion Battery Fire?
Despite their name, lithium-ion batteries, used in consumer products, do not contain any actual lithium metal.

Therefore, a Class D fire extinguisher is not to be used to fight a lithium-ion battery fire.

Class D fire extinguishers, which contain dry powder, are intended for combustible metal fires only. Since lithium-ion batteries aren’t made with metallic lithium, a Class D dry powder extinguisher would not be effective.
So, what kind of fire extinguisher should you use in this scenario?
Lithium-ion batteries are considered a Class B fire, so a standard ABC or BC dry chemical fire extinguisher should be used.
Class B is the classification given to flammable liquids. Lithium-ion batteries contain liquid electrolytes that provide a conductive pathway, so the batteries receive a B fire classification.
➥ https://resources.impactfireservices...n-battery-fire
➥ https://steadfastfire.com/how-to-ext...n-battery-fire
➥ https://www.amerex-fire.com/upl/down...-batteries.pdf

A Class D fire extinguisher is used on combustible metals, such as magnesium, titanium, sodium, etc., which require an extinguishing medium that does not react with the burning metal.
Class D extinguishers typically require a large amount of agent (several inches) to complete encapsulate and smother the fire, which is why they are only available in 30 lb capacity for handheld units (± 28 seconds to fully discharge).
These extinguishers are designed to softly deliver the agent so it piles up in a layer rather than the typical vigorous discharge of a conventional ABC-type extinguisher.
Class D agents ( powdered graphite, granular sodium chloride or copper based - or a bucket of sand) can also be purchased in pails and applied by scoop or shovel for smaller and/or well-contained fires.
The extinguishers are very heavy - an extinguisher containing 30 pounds of powder weighs 53 pounds. Application of the dry powder on Class A, B or C fires can be ineffective & very dangerous.

[thinwater]

We talked about Halon, but I didn't see any discussion of it's replacement, FM 200 / HFC 227.

https://www.h3raviation.com/fm-200.htm


Also the Nordfire Maul Klein. I've tested this one, but I'm choosing not give an opinion here. Not UL rated but it certainly puts out fires and the residue is far less than dry chemical. Intersting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIwSGpCC08Y