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Old 03-02-2025, 00:38   #16
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari View Post
. . . the issue is to make it safer if you trip on deck in rough weather while clipped on & getting banged up along the way & this is so widely recogized as a problem "in real life" that some folks rig their jacklines outside the shrouds. .

I have never heard anyone worrying about this before, so I'm surprised to hear someone say it's "widely recognized as a problem". But what I know is far less than everything, so I'm glad this topic was posted. I have never worried about this, but will follow this topic to see what people say, in case I should.



Jacklines outside shrouds is a terrible idea -- that puts them right at the rail. A tether is worse than useless, I think, if it can't keep you from going over the rail, and simple geometry says that no tether is short enough to keep you from going over, if the jackline is right at the rail.


I keep my jacklines away from the rail by belaying them at several points. A hypothetical arrestor device could not slide past those points. This is the same reason why I have to unclip and reclip a few times on my way forward.
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Old 03-02-2025, 00:45   #17
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
. . . My rule was that once on deck, when clipped in, your center of mass (your a@@) should not be able to get over the rail. . .

This is a great aspiration, and kudos to you if you are able to clip in like that on your boat the whole way forward. I am not, on the leeward side of the boat when heeled, particularly not on the side decks along the cabin top. I deal with that by never going on that part of the side decks on the low side, and if I need to get to something there (which happens; the active genoa car tracks are on the low side, and some other pieces of deck gear are there too), I heave to.


Maybe it's better to just burn into your brain that if you are not clipped in in a manner which limits your posterior part from going over, then you're not clipped in and shouldn't imagine you are.
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Old 03-02-2025, 00:57   #18
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
This topic gets brought up pretty regularly, and IMO it needs not only a lot more discussion, but a paradigm shift in how people approach onboard safety. There's been rapid evolution recently in auto-inflatable harness/tether design, largely because the whole system just. doesn't. work. Crotch strap, leg loops, Vito variety--it's all trying to address a situation that should never be allowed to happen.
My thought (and practice) is that when moving toward your workstation on deck, you have two hands to hang on by. Use them, without being distracted by clipping/unclipping/fumbling, etc.
At the mast or foredeck, clip in with an adjustable daisy chain (I make some for myself, and sell them on my climbing gear webstore). If you clip short below waist level, you can brace against the tether with your legs, and have a very stable stance with both hands free. I did this all through the rowdiest conditions in the Northwest Passage, as well as on several mid-Atlantic trips. It works beautifully.
Return by holding on with both hands. This gets you on deck and back a lot quicker than futzing with always trying to be clipped in every single second, and gives you a comfortable, braced stance when working at the mast or foredeck.
You're advocating "free climbing" to get forward, without clipping in at all? The reason why you clip in is for the case where you CAN'T hold on, which can happen no matter how strong you are, not just from violent boat motion, but particularly from being hit by a boarding sea, which can have unbelievable force.

One advantage of "free climbing" is that it focuses the mind, knowing that your grip is the only thing between you and death. Still, I prefer to be clipped in. Or better yet, if there is a significant risk of boarding seas, heaving-to.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 03-02-2025, 04:28   #19
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You're advocating "free climbing" to get forward, without clipping in at all? The reason why you clip in is for the case where you CAN'T hold on, which can happen no matter how strong you are, not just from violent boat motion, but particularly from being hit by a boarding sea, which can have unbelievable force.

One advantage of "free climbing" is that it focuses the mind, knowing that your grip is the only thing between you and death. Still, I prefer to be clipped in. Or better yet, if there is a significant risk of boarding seas, heaving-to.
Even so. If it was ever bad enough that there was a real chance of green water carrying me away, I'd prefer to heave to. Conditions that bad are rare in my experience, but I have carried a second daisy chain so that I can leapfrog-clip my way forward if needs be. I find that I'm in most danger of losing my grip when I have to free up hands to untangle tethers, to clip and re-clip, and meanwhile the reason I'm going forward in such conditions still abides, and might be getting worse every moment.
Getting sail in quickly in a sudden squall may be key to safety. The quicker I can go get a sail under control, the safer and better. Dicking around with too much tethering robs me of valuable time.
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Old 03-02-2025, 05:47   #20
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
Even so. If it was ever bad enough that there was a real chance of green water carrying me away, I'd prefer to heave to. Conditions that bad are rare in my experience, but I have carried a second daisy chain so that I can leapfrog-clip my way forward if needs be. I find that I'm in most danger of losing my grip when I have to free up hands to untangle tethers, to clip and re-clip, and meanwhile the reason I'm going forward in such conditions still abides, and might be getting worse every moment.
Getting sail in quickly in a sudden squall may be key to safety. The quicker I can go get a sail under control, the safer and better. Dicking around with too much tethering robs me of valuable time.

OK, I understand your process.


As long as you're not doing it in conditions with a significant risk of boarding seas or violent boat motion, then that's what i do too. I don't clip in in daylight in weather less than what creates those risks, typically at least F6. But yes -- like you, I might well still clip in at the work site.


Nor do I even wear a life jacket in really good weather when there's more than one person on deck, although probably better practice would to be to wear it all the time on deck.
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Old 03-02-2025, 06:08   #21
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I have never heard anyone worrying about this before, so I'm surprised to hear someone say it's "widely recognized as a problem". But what I know is far less than everything, so I'm glad this topic was posted. I have never worried about this, but will follow this topic to see what people say, in case I should.

..snip
Abilash Tommy was injured during the first OGR on Indian Ocean when his boat was (almost?) inverted. He had clipped on the mast but was thrown up along it and fell down on deck injuring his back and ribs. Managed get in the cabin and sending Mayday but couldn't do anything else for few days until he was evacuated and airlifted to hospital in India.
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Old 03-02-2025, 06:16   #22
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
Abilash Tommy was injured during the first OGR on Indian Ocean when his boat was (almost?) inverted. He had clipped on the mast but was thrown up along it and fell down on deck injuring his back and ribs. Managed get in the cabin and sending Mayday but couldn't do anything else for few days until he was evacuated and airlifted to hospital in India.

Sounds horrible.


But that's not the case the OP is worried about -- he's worried about sliding ALONG the jackstays along the deck.
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Old 03-02-2025, 07:41   #23
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I have never heard anyone worrying about this before, so I'm surprised to hear someone say it's "widely recognized as a problem". But what I know is far less than everything, so I'm glad this topic was posted. I have never worried about this, but will follow this topic to see what people say, in case I should....

I have. It was a story I heard first hand from a Volvo boat crew member. They started using work station tethers and also placing intermediate loops in the jacklines. I never heard how it worked out.


This should be qualified by saying that these boats sail at extreme speeds and the foredeck is extremely clear and uncluttered. I have never heard it as a serious concern on a cruising boat. But an interesting discussion, none the less.


Multihulls have their own concerns on big, wide tramps. They are more prone to sudden deceleration (stuff a wave). At least they don't lean.
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Old 03-02-2025, 07:45   #24
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

Bump.



What triggers the device to grab? (see post 15)


If I have to keep my hand on a slider to manage it, that is one less hand I can hold on with, reducing safety. It must be self-tending. This is why I like a Camp Goblin for vertical climbing fall arrest; it slides up and down the rope without my attention, allowing me to focus on the flow of climbing. For me, that is safer and more plesant.
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Old 03-02-2025, 10:17   #25
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

If you use a typical climbing device then you line will not be flat. So you will riska trip and roll accident over your own safety line.


So the line would need to be aerial, not one resting on the deck !


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Old 03-02-2025, 11:42   #26
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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If you use a typical climbing device then you line will not be flat. So you will riska trip and roll accident over your own safety line.


So the line would need to be aerial, not one resting on the deck !


b.

In fact, on many boats this hazard can be avoided by routing. Some of the best locations for jacklines are on cabin chimes and other places that are out of the walking path entirely. Sometimes possible, sometimes not.


But yes, lines on deck are very slippery. Even webbing isn't great. Amsteel is about like webbing because it flattens.


Also, on a side note, shoes that are very flexible (most deck shoes) are less prone to rolling on ropes than more supportive, stiffer athletic shoes and sneakers. I did testing, the difference was as much as 50%. A lot. In fact, that is the biggest difference between my deck shoes and my court shoes. I barely notice on the cruising cat, but on my F-24, with more lines on deck and a quicker motion, it makes a difference.
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Old 03-02-2025, 11:55   #27
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

Install several shorter jack lines end to end, and have two tethers on your harness. When you get to the end of the first jackline, clip the spare tether onto jackline 2, then remove the 1st tether from jackline one. In that order so you're always clipped in. This means you can only slide the length of that particular jackline.

This also feels like overkill to me.
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Old 03-02-2025, 13:49   #28
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
Install several shorter jack lines end to end, and have two tethers on your harness. When you get to the end of the first jackline, clip the spare tether onto jackline 2, then remove the 1st tether from jackline one. In that order so you're always clipped in. This means you can only slide the length of that particular jackline.

This also feels like overkill to me.

Yes, but it has a lot of advantages. Shorter jacklines have less deflection for a given length, a great advantage in the geometry for keeping you from going over the rail. Shorter jacklines will be easier to keep further inboard.


I think this is a good idea, actually, and my jacklines are actually similar to this, as I have belayed them at several points along their length, pulling them inboard where possible. This requires what you mention -- unclip and reclip as you go along. I don't find this so horrible -- can be done pretty easily with a three-hook tether, without ever being unhooked.
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Old 03-02-2025, 15:19   #29
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
Install several shorter jack lines end to end, and have two tethers on your harness. When you get to the end of the first jackline, clip the spare tether onto jackline 2, then remove the 1st tether from jackline one. In that order so you're always clipped in. This means you can only slide the length of that particular jackline.

This also feels like overkill to me.

Yes, on all counts.


I will add that running jacklines to the ends (bow and stern cleats) is also inherantly flawed, since the tether will reach some distance. I have always ended mine 4-5 feet short of the ends.
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Old 04-02-2025, 04:46   #30
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Re: Fall arrestor on jacklines?

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Yes, on all counts.

I will add that running jacklines to the ends (bow and stern cleats) is also inherantly flawed, since the tether will reach some distance. I have always ended mine 4-5 feet short of the ends.

That's a good idea.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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