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Old 26-10-2016, 22:52   #46
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

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I won't be waiting for it - no matter how intriguing it may be.

Neither will I for that matter.
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Old 26-10-2016, 22:58   #47
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

Regardless of whether one has a Liferaft or not, you need to train with ALL of your onboard emergency gear. Including getting comfortable donning a survival suit, or foulies, etc. In The Water. With & without the aid of sight. So that getting dressed while treading water literally takes little thought. Ditto on using the rest of your gear. And practicing seemingly unneeded drills, like how to take off your pants in the water & turn them into a PFD. Going to/setting up flare demo’s & trials. Being a participant at Safety at Sea Seminars. Reading ALL of the info on your gear, so that you know it’s weaknesses as well as it’s strengths. And training yourself to use the wetware above your neck before depending on store bought gear. Including thinking though how you’ll use all of your gear in each scenario, along with what’s likely to go wrong, & how to avoid those missteps, as well as how to fix them if they occur.

Sadly, most people are prone to freezing up when in the water & under duress. So you revert back to the training that you’ve had/practiced. And it’s worth avoiding being a cliché or statistic on this one. Cool heads rule. And Emergency Action Checklists Rock. Ask any pilot, firefighter, or stew.

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Old 27-10-2016, 00:35   #48
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

A
..
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Unwarrented binary choice, liferaft or die.
You mean it's a "false dichotomy". Maybe.

But what IS binary is being IN the water vs OUT of the water. Which makes an absolutely dramatic difference in you chances of your survival except in cases of short term immersion in warm water.

If you go into the water at night, in winter, where I sail, with no AIS beacon and/or no vessel very close by, your chances of survival are, if maybe not exactly zero, then anyway practically zero. Kiss your butt goodbye. And a PLB won't save you - your survival time is less than the response time.

Whereas in a raft, they must be better than 90%. In a raft and with a PLB, probably close to 100%.

Note all of these harrowing best selling books about sailors barely surviving in their rafts are ALL cases where there was no effective means of signalling. If any of them had had a working PLB or EPIRB, their stories would not have been interesting at all.

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Old 27-10-2016, 03:09   #49
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

As someone who works in the harsh environment of the North Sea I would say having the option of being able to stay out of the water is an absolute lifesaver. Even with our survival suits the life expectancy if we ditch and end up in the water is only a matter of minutes, in summer! Get into the (aviation) liferafts and survival chances increase dramatically.

And SAR helicopters will fly in up to 120kts winds with the RNLI fearlessly launching into sea conditions that most sane men would head to high mountains to escape (check their website for some amazing rescue footage and photos).

Even in the Med you could be suffering hypothermia within hours if you fall in, even with full oilies on, which might come as a surprise but water strips heat from the body 10x more effectively than air. First rule of mountain survival is get dry.

So a life raft will improve your odds of survival in the most extreme emergencies no matter where in the oceans you sail. As many have already said you should only enter the raft by stepping "up" into it. Stay on the boat until you absolutely have to leave it as very few boats will sink instantly, even the Titanic stayed afloat for an hour. Even when you are in the raft try to remain attached to the boat as this will make you a much large target and if the raft is downwind of the hull you will be a little more sheltered.

It's personal choice as to if you have a raft or not. We have a 6man valise raft at present but are going to trade it in for a lighter spec 4 man next year. We only got the 6 man because it was a requirement for the Croatian registration, now we are back on the SSR we don't need to have one but like a condom "it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it".

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Old 27-10-2016, 10:29   #50
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

We are thinking of buying an inflatable for a dingy that has the ability to become a life boat with a snap on tent. DO they make such a tender?
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Old 27-10-2016, 10:32   #51
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

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We are thinking of buying an inflatable for a dingy that has the ability to become a life boat with a snap on tent. DO they make such a tender?
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Old 27-10-2016, 11:50   #52
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

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Two great things about the Portland Pudgy are double duty as a dink, plus you can sail or row the thing if you need to.

HOWEVER -- is it really resistant enough to capsize? The Pudgy folks claim that ballast bags in normal liferafts don't actually work, so the sea anchor arrangement in the PP is no worse.

No worse?? I don't think this is acceptable in either case. The liferaft will not save you if it flips over in breaking seas. The ballast bags had better work, or we need to throw all our rafts away.

I would be interested to know if anyone really knows the truth.

I'm not bothered by the "active sailing/rowing" aspect of the PP. With decent signalling you should not need to have to sail anywhere. If the boat burns or goes down in calm weather, you might as well use the regular dinghy. As many survivors have done, often linking together a life raft and the regular dinghy, which seems smart to me.
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Old 27-10-2016, 12:21   #53
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

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Two great things about the Portland Pudgy are double duty as a dink, plus you can sail or row the thing if you need to.

HOWEVER -- is it really resistant enough to capsize? The Pudgy folks claim that ballast bags in normal liferafts don't actually work, so the sea anchor arrangement in the PP is no worse.

No worse?? I don't think this is acceptable in either case. The liferaft will not save you if it flips over in breaking seas. The ballast bags had better work, or we need to throw all our rafts away.

I would be interested to know if anyone really knows the truth.

I'm not bothered by the "active sailing/rowing" aspect of the PP. With decent signalling you should not need to have to sail anywhere. If the boat burns or goes down in calm weather, you might as well use the regular dinghy. As many survivors have done, often linking together a life raft and the regular dinghy, which seems smart to me.
tethered to it shouldn't make a difference.. easily righted and self bailing, kills two birds (Dinghy/liferaft) and you can sail home.. or wait
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Old 27-10-2016, 12:22   #54
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

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You missed his point!
Actually, I didn't care what his point was. It was opportunity I saw

The thread is about life rafts and when I see that I think of a 6 Man Avon Life Raft that a guy "sailed" 3/4 the way across the Atlantic having read Adrift 2-3 times

I just wanted to make a point about how good of a book Adrift by Steven Callahan is!

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...lantic-76-days

https://www.amazon.com/Adrift-Sevent.../dp/0618257322

Adrift: Seventy-Six Days Lost at Sea by Steven Callahan — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

Btw, my life raft as a coastal cruiser is a 16' 6" Kayak already assembled and stored on deck
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Old 27-10-2016, 13:37   #55
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

An inflatable dinghy and a liferaft are two separate stories.

To some of us a dinghy (inflated and ready to deploy) can be an alternative rescue platform but to others this is totally out of the question.

There is no "can I do this or that" answer here.

Look up your state/flag regulations. Next look up the possible worst conditions in the area you are going to cruise. Then make your own mind on which devices and means you want onboard in case the mother ship goes all the way down.

All other things equal, I think most offshore going boats do need one.

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Old 27-10-2016, 15:49   #56
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

There used to be the Tinker Traveller and Tinker Tramp.
We have two OceanCraft (Australia) dinghies aboard - we have not carried a life raft for over 20 years. That is our choice as we prefer an proactive dinghy over the alternative.



Quote:
Originally Posted by artisthos View Post
We are thinking of buying an inflatable for a dingy that has the ability to become a life boat with a snap on tent. DO they make such a tender?
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Old 27-10-2016, 16:08   #57
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Two great things about the Portland Pudgy are double duty as a dink, plus you can sail or row the thing if you need to.

HOWEVER -- is it really resistant enough to capsize? The Pudgy folks claim that ballast bags in normal liferafts don't actually work, so the sea anchor arrangement in the PP is no worse.

No worse?? I don't think this is acceptable in either case. The liferaft will not save you if it flips over in breaking seas. The ballast bags had better work, or we need to throw all our rafts away.

I would be interested to know if anyone really knows the truth.

I'm not bothered by the "active sailing/rowing" aspect of the PP. With decent signalling you should not need to have to sail anywhere. If the boat burns or goes down in calm weather, you might as well use the regular dinghy. As many survivors have done, often linking together a life raft and the regular dinghy, which seems smart to me.
"With decent signalling" that's the rub isn't it? Though today's eprib is much better than what Steve Callahan had, his story does illiterate the point that there maybe times and circumstances where nothing is going to plan. Not even your rescue plan.

The point being that "survival" rarely come with pretty packaging. "Survival" if you think about it, means the bar on comfort is very very low. If one can count on "just wating it out" you are not truly in a survival situation. You are just in hold pattern. That's not thinking through "survival" enough imo.
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Old 27-10-2016, 18:02   #58
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft,

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Sorry, but my opinion is that a proper dinghy should be able to serve triple duty. To serve as a liferaft, provide shore to boat transportation in any weather and to serve as a tow boat if and when the mothership becomes disabled.

The pudgy looks like a very weak attempt at two of these abilities and a no show at being able to tow the mothership. Good luck on the pudgy in winds of 25-35 knots with choppy seas. Make sure you bring along a handheld waterproof VHF.
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Old 27-10-2016, 18:20   #59
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
There used to be the Tinker Traveller and Tinker Tramp.
We have two OceanCraft (Australia) dinghies aboard - we have not carried a life raft for over 20 years. That is our choice as we prefer an proactive dinghy over the alternative.
I've got one of those Tinker Travellers and would use it on the big boat, but only if I were going way offshore.
It's not fun putting up the mast, seat, etc...on land, and I can imagine the PITA it would be doing that on the water.
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Old 27-10-2016, 18:45   #60
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft

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Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming View Post
"With decent signalling" that's the rub isn't it? Though today's eprib is much better than what Steve Callahan had, his story does illiterate the point that there maybe times and circumstances where nothing is going to plan. Not even your rescue plan. . . .
Being really sure that your rescue signalling works, need not be any rub. It just requires thought and planning, and some investment. With enough redundancy, you can reduce the risk of not being able to get a distress message out, to a very small number. This is much more efficient than compromising other qualities of the escape vehicle, in order to gain the ability to sail or row it.

A spare PLB, tethered in your life vest, is much easier and cheaper and does not increase the tendency to capsize.
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