Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

[atmartin]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I was in BUILDING construction for 45 years. Each phase has its different challenges: the start is heavy construction with digging and foundations; followed by steel or concrete, ie walls and floors. Once the big stuff is built, the rest is "fitting out" - ducts, pipes, wires, ceiling and wall and floor finishes. These are less prone to serious injury than heavy construction, and building construction is different than bridges, roads, and other civil stuff.

I guess I should have been more specific, for me it was heavy construction: dirtwork, foundations and highways. Guess every trade is a little bit different. We had so much oversight, inspectors and safety meetings before we even got on site; people usually minded their manners until we got behind or the REs/safety guys stopped showing up.

Your experience pretty much blows my pet theory out of the water. Knock wood, I've never had a serious accident at sea, but the real screw-ups were always when I was tired or seasick.

[quahauq]

Shooting big bears and experienced sailors: Look a the "I Can't Believe I'm Starting A Gun" thread" and the proof is that many sailors LEARN about shooting/defense just like hunters have to LEARN about safety/survival afloat.

[hellosailor]

Dunno about that. If you are suddenly confronted by a boat poking its nose into your tent sniffing for food, you can usually say "Hold on a minute, let me google that". Whereas if a bear pokes into your tent...Yeah, the learning curve has to happen at a very different rate in a totally different manner.

And if you turn your back on a boat and walk away from it, there's no reported incidents of the boats following you and charging you. Although, to be fair, there have been way more boating fatalities than bear attacks, year after year.

[quahauq]

I'd guess bear fatalities more or less equal sailing fatalities but the nature of experience in both cases is that concern for possible outcomes should reduce accidents if anticipated in advance. Lack of learning/experience equals more adventure!

[Capt Phil]

Interesting thread! Spent about 20 years commercial boat driving attaining a certification level, then another 20 years cruising my own boats both sail and power, another 15-20 years running a delivery business out of San Diego, north and south. So I have certainly got the requisite experience to handle just about anything the Sea would throw my way. I am over 75 years old now and have realized that I am not the sailor I once was! Further, experience is all fine and good but as you grow older your faculties, decision making and physical ability all start to deteriorate. I know because I am living it right now!
Cheers, Phil

[quahauq]

I'm 76 and would bet you're twice as safe as I am with your experience. How about an example....if you can?

[robert sailor]

Personally i believe everyone is different and it's hard to put a tag on age or hours or where you have sailed.
Sailing is a skill and in all skills some people are just better at it and safer. I think you can throw out a few generalities but I'm not so sure they mean a lot.
Some people are just a lot smarter, have more common sense and can judge risk much better than the average person, just the skill of accessing risk is a unique skill that separates an ok sailor with a really good and safe one.
So it's an interesting topic which I'm sure will draw lots of interest but not so sure anything of real value will be laid at our feet.

[quahauq]

The skill of assessing risk! Sounds like a college course. My question is: What psychological profile would do this best for sailing? Myers-Briggs type?

[quahauq]

there are hints here:https://psmag.com/environment/sail-a...orld-mad-84620
What a shock to be dismasted after circumnavigating in the English Channel. The summary at the end concisely states IT.

[Pelagic]

Experience without the self awareness of your aging limitations, describes an arrogant sailor.

The "Best", at whatever stage in their sailing journey, always have that healthy dose of self humility and respect for the Sea.

[thinwater]

There is also the probability that more experienced boaters are more likely to be able to cope with an accident (MOB, leaks, grounding) without need of assistance or making a report. Your contingency skills improve.

[belizesailor]

Ive never seen any hard data re sailors, but it could probably be extrapolated from known incidents. There have been a number of well published losses by inexperienced sailors (one guy who posted here recently had a total loss within about 3 days of buying his boat). However, there have also been losses by experienced crews. How to normalize that accurately for experience with available data would be very challenging.

There was a study of SCUBA divers years ago by DAN which was specifically focussed on the role of experience in diving accidents. They found that most diving accidents occurred in inexperienced and very experienced divers. The conclusion was that the inexperienced got into trouble because of lack of experience and that exeperienced divers were sometimes a bit too comfortable underwater and took risks they should not have. The safest group were the moderately experiened, who knew enough not to do something stupid, but were cautious enough not to take bigger risks. I think this same phenomena applies in SOME categories of sailing accidents.

However, one factor which you encounter in sailing that is uncommon in diving is circumstances beyond your control. Diving accidents are almost always "operator error" (somebody did something foolish). Many sailing accidents are not. Examples: unexpected keel/rig failures, unforecast severe weather (like water spouts, lightening strikes, severe localized conditions, etc).

Personally, I like to think my experience keeps me & my crew safer, and have come thru many challenging situations without ever a scratch (its part of the fun & challenge of sailing), but Ive also done things the less experienced might not attempt (both diving and sailing)...fortunately Ive come thru those OK too, but a slight change in variables and it could have ended badly.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by thinwater

There is also the probability that more experienced boaters are more likely to be able to cope with an accident (MOB, leaks, grounding) without need of assistance or making a report. Your contingency skills improve.

Yes, many boating accidents are a chain of events/decisions going wrong. Experience is a big factor when 5 things go wrong all at once (airline pilots train for this). I agree that experience can help avoid difficult situations turning into accident reports and probably also increases survival rate when things go badly wrong.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Sure, as we get older we learn from our mistakes, we read, and we understand what we are doing better. But we also become complacent, more certain that we can handle a blow and avoid trouble.

Forget complete beginners. Most will never become serious sailors and it could skew the statistics. We know beginning drivers are poor. They become steadily better with age, until some tipping point is reached. But driving is different from sports.

If I think about rock climbers, I know beginners have accidents. But I know VERY experienced climbers that have had stupid accidents resulting from complacency. There is also a tendency to push more and more difficult climbs as their skills grow. That is what keeps it alive. Their skills are greater, but so is the difficulty and hence risk.

For many sailors there must be a similar curve. I am far more likely to singlehand in a blow. After all, I've got it down. There are very few surprises anymore. Even in light to moderate weather, perhaps I am more casual on deck. Sure enough, we hear of sailors of all ages being lost.

I'm sure if we adopt a low-risk style, safety increases. We make fewer mistakes and avoid hazardous conditions. Many older sailors do this. But if we do not, if we still seek adventure, as we did in our youth, does safety increase with age, stay level, or even decline as a result of arrogance?

Can you prove it?

The simple proof is.... We are still here!

You assume complacency where there is none...(think of a duck looking serene on top but paddling furiously underneath).

That is what an experienced sailor in command does.

As to Age....limitations become obvious and you adjust to zones that are less physically demanding.
I have captained ships with such superb seakeeping ability that I would merrily steam into a full gale in the Bering Sea with little concern.

Now that I am retired. I leave that to the young guns to pay their dues.

What stays with you, is respect for wind, weather and tide.

[charliehows]

I would offer the example of David Lewis as an old, bold sailor - mad as a hatter, really, but his last misadventure, which he survived (foundering off Great Barrier Island at the beginning of a typically haphazardly planned voyage), was in his 80's I believe.