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Old 01-06-2017, 05:45   #46
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari View Post
But how far do you take the whatifs?

Especially when you consider that every measure you take to reduce risks, creates other risks and burdens too and has an "opportunity cost" -- could the money have been spent better on a different safety angle.

You take your what-ifs as far (or not) as you want.

As does everyone, I expect.

The ultimate what-if might be about a catastrophric event, where a life raft would maybe save the day, and you don't have one. "What if" you had one?

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Old 01-06-2017, 05:47   #47
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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Hi Mike,
No argument from me that you have that right to prioritize and I believe you will also be sailing alone...., but just one hypothetical question....

If you read that a US towing company had decided not to put the "legally required" Liferafts on their 5 man Tug boats as they were financially just scraping by.....and one of those tugs sank.

Would public opinion aprove of the companies' priorities?
Actually, I sail with my partner. We make these kinds of decisions together. Much like running rapids in a canoe on a wilderness trip, or choosing to head out into snarly remote seas on our sailboat, we both have to be in agreement. If either of us says no, we don’t go…

Anyway, I don’t want to respond to your hypothetical b/c it’s not applicable to my situation (commercial, regulated, etc…). I’m not seeking public approval of my choices. I’m just trying to make a rational choice based on the facts as best I can ascertain them.

And I accept that failure is always an option .
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Old 01-06-2017, 06:15   #48
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pirate Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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I think it's safe to assume that anyone who's boat sinks in the open ocean will die if they don't have a secondary boat.

With today's electronics, maybe the secondary boat doesn't have to be a raft loaded with lots of water and food. Maybe a dinghy with 48 hours worth of supplies and an Epirb will do.
.
I don't know 1 liferaft that comes that way.. in fact the 4-6-8 man rafts are pathetic in what they provide both in water and food.. so basically what you'd have to do is pop the raft.. pull it back alongside and load her with all your 'extras'.. kinda hard to do in sea's and the wind constantly flipping it over.
A dinghy however can have stuff loaded into it while still on deck and floated off.. and all I need is one or two 5L water jugs as I carry a hand operated Watermaker in the ditch bag..
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Old 01-06-2017, 06:21   #49
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

We never had life-rafts on our first 2 mono hull boats. We lived just fine without them.

Mono hull boats sink like a rock if holed badly, but we never gave it a second thought.

Now we are on our 2nd catamaran which has huge foam blocks all over it to keep it floating if damaged and they come standard with life-rafts.

The only time on a catamaran that you would ever get in a life-raft is if its on fire.

On our first 36 foot catamaran that we had for 7 years, we remove the life-raft and left it at home as it just took up to much deck space.

On a catamaran if your not circumnavigating or crossing oceans you really can do without a life-raft.

Many, Many cruisers have expired life-rafts on board and do not have the resources to send it out and wait a few weeks in one place to get it shipped back aboard. You just live with the situation and make the best of it.

Good PFD's with a personal EPIRB's on each one makes far more sense if your coastal cruising.
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Old 20-06-2017, 23:50   #50
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

Hmmm. Succumbing to hypothermia would be much quicker immersed in water than in a Liferaft. How does the exhausted, hypothermic person shown in your picture continue to hold his PLB in place (elevated with aerial pointing skyward)?
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Old 21-06-2017, 05:25   #51
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Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari View Post
Are liferafts really a rational expenditure for safety's sake, considering the actual statistical risks?

According to US Coast Guard statistics, in 2016 there were 56 deaths on boats from 26 to 40 feet long, and half of these deaths are actually due to drowning. (Link, See page 13) The greatest danger to boaters are inattentive fellow boaters and alcohol, not sinking or drowning.

This has consistently been the case for many years, so basically about 2 people every year drown on a boat the size of my boat (35 feet).

Now compared that to fact that on average 1 person a day drowns in a bathtub in the US.

Logically, bathtubs should have liferafts.

Some would argue that the value of human life cannot be measured by expenditure alone, and so even if it saves only 1 life, then the expense is worth it. In other words, as the argument goes, this is something that should not be subject to a cost-benefit analysis, that there is something else that should be considered, something special that trumps the cost-benefit anaylsis. I call this the fear-premium. All the more reason why bathtubs should have life rafts then, since they're far more likely to be needed, daily.

Seriously though, considering that the money that goes towards a life raft -- and it is a fairly expensive bit of kit -- could instead be spent on other safety gear that is far more likely to be used to avoid injuries or death (such as improved electronics...

(more at Sailing Whimsy: Are life rafts really a rational expense? but the gist of my point is here )


I'd say no, but then cruising is not a particularly rational choice either.

In a previous poll on this forum the results were 2:1 for carrying a liferaft. While that is a supermajority it was not consensus.

On my boat I am slowly installing lots of foam and choosing to store most items in watertight containers. Ultimately the boat will be unsinkable short of being run down and smashed to pieces.

I will not be buying a liferaft. In addition to the cost, I really have no good place to store it.
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Old 21-06-2017, 05:34   #52
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

A lot of good comments.

There is no "right" answer to this question. I like Mike's approach.

I think it also has a great deal to do with the latitude where you're sailing.

When I was cruising SW Florida, I didn't have a liferaft and never worried about it. I was never so far offshore that I could be surprised by ocean weather, and we had the dinghy always inflated and in davits ready to go. Even if we had to go in the water, we wouldn't die immediately from hypothermia. Liferaft didn't seem necessary.

Up here (I'm above 60N at the moment), it looks very different indeed. I sail in a lot of significant ocean weather, sometimes far from shore, and often in water temperature which would kill you in minutes. The liferaft might well be the only way to stay out of the water, if God forbid etc.

So I carry a liferaft (actually two of them, good Avon ones, and both up to date in service), but I don't even have a choice, as it is legally required -- one of the very few legal requirements -- on any UK-flag boat above 50'.
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Old 21-06-2017, 05:43   #53
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

"How does the exhausted, hypothermic person shown in your picture continue to hold his PLB in place (elevated with aerial pointing skyward)?"

What isn't apparent from the picture, is that PLB's and EPIRB's are both normally designed so that they will float "face up" with the antenna correctly oriented, even if the corpse has let go of them. At least, the ones sold and made for marine service do. If you're just camping, there are usually floaty cases for the dry land models, which may be cheaper, smaller, and ignore the issue of how to float without that extra.

That's one reason they usually use a very lightweight "tape measure" antenna instead of a conventional "rubber duck" or other heavier antenna.
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Old 21-06-2017, 05:46   #54
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I consider life rafts to be in the same category as guns. They are a highly specialized tool which have a high cost (not just financial) and have a fairly narrow window of usefulness. They both also have significant drawbacks and failure paths. If I ever found myself in that situation where they were useful, then I'd surely be very glad to have one, but by any rational measure of the risk, the odds of me ever needing one is exceedingly small.

If my resources were unlimited I would have one in a flash. But since they are not, I must apply a cost-benefit analysis to this (and indeed all) risk situations. The risk is very low, and so far I’ve not found the benefit justifies the cost. I don’t cross oceans (yet), although I have sailed in areas where help could be days away. I may also be more comfortable with a higher level of risk than many.

For me, the resources associated with a life raft are currently better used in more functional ways. But as I say, this is my current calculus, and I may change my mind in the future. Other people will weigh the variables differently, and come to different conclusions.
A uniquely intelligent comment on the subject.

The comparison with guns is really astute in my opinion. Like guns -- liferafts also provide peace of mind -- what might be even an illusion of safety. But a pleasant one.

I'm not sure that's even a bad use of money -- to feel safer, even if the statistical probability of actually needing it is microscopic. Provided you haven't skimped on some safety measure or item of safety gear which you are more likely to need.

You might also compare life rafts to insurance. You pay a certain amount, to be sure that you won't be left dog-paddling in the cold water if the mother ship goes down. It's a low probability high consequence event. You don't care that it's low probability; the consequences are so terrible that you are willing to pay just to be really sure. Like insuring against your house burning down.
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Old 21-06-2017, 05:55   #55
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

"Like guns -- liferafts also provide peace of mind --"
Wait. So, I can deduct both my bespoke shotguns and liferaft as medical (pyschiatric) expenses on my income tax?
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Old 21-06-2017, 06:36   #56
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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There you go.

I was hoping this discussion would go in the direction of "where to better spend the money." Additionally, I suspect there is some number that got into life rafts and were never heard from again.
  • Watertight bulkheads. Even a false floor. Partial bulkheads. I'm pretty sure my boat cannot sink (two crash tanks forward, two aft, in both hulls (8 tanks), no ballast. Flip, possibly, but I still don't need or want the raft.
  • Fire suppression systems.
  • More third party inspections. We can all miss something.
And so forth.
Excellent response. Pointing to those who have been saved without considering those who haven't is a biased analysis.

Example if you have $2000 available for safety upgrades:
- You can buy a life raft which reduces your chance of dying by 0.000001%
- You can spend it on repairs and upgrades to the mother ship (say water tight bulkheads) which will reduce your chance of dying by 0.1%

Where would you spend the money? If you knew ahead of time that you would fall in the 0.000001% category, of course you would get the life raft but since you can't know that ahead of time, spending the money the 2nd option is far better option.

The best option is to sell the boat to some poor SOB and let him do the dying while you sit safely ashore.
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Old 21-06-2017, 07:53   #57
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

Several people have mentioned that their boats are unsinkable and therefore don't need a life raft.

The problem is that even if the boat doesn't sink, you are probably going to get wet and stay wet. There was an incedent about ten years ago where four football players were fishing off the west coast of Florida. They managed to capsize the boat but it continued to float fairly high. Despite being able to climb on the bottom of the boat, three of the four died of hypothermia. The coast guard found the boat in less than 48 hours.

I have to think they would have all survived if they were in a life raft.
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Old 21-06-2017, 08:01   #58
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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Several people have mentioned that their boats are unsinkable and therefore don't need a life raft.

The problem is that even if the boat doesn't sink, you are probably going to get wet and stay wet. There was an incedent about ten years ago where four football players were fishing off the west coast of Florida. They managed to capsize the boat but it continued to float fairly high. Despite being able to climb on the bottom of the boat, three of the four died of hypothermia. The coast guard found the boat in less than 48 hours.

I have to think they would have all survived if they were in a life raft.
Have you ever seen a life raft?

In anything but mill pond conditions, expect to get wet and have little more than a layer or plastic between you and the water.

Also that was a small runabout/cuddy cabin not a large cruising boat. Pure and unrealistic expectations that they would have been saved by a life raft.
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Old 21-06-2017, 08:08   #59
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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The comparison with guns is really astute in my opinion. Like guns -- liferafts also provide peace of mind -- what might be even an illusion of safety. But a pleasant one.

I'm not sure that's even a bad use of money -- to feel safer, even if the statistical probability of actually needing it is microscopic. Provided you haven't skimped on some safety measure or item of safety gear which you are more likely to need.
Completely agree . Peace of mind can certainly be worth the cost of a life raft. Insurance definitely falls into the same category. Like I say, it comes down to risk and cost-benefit. Risk for most cruisers is quite low, but we all have different risk tolerances. In my last land house we carried zero insurance, and we even heated with a wood stove and almost never locked our doors. So I suspect my tolerance for risk is higher than most.

It’s hard to remain perfectly rational, especially when it comes to securing self and the people you love, but unless resources are infinite, choices must be made. There are many higher-risk factors that can be mitigated with the resources taken up by a life raft (or insurance or a gun). But if I ever needed one (life raft, insurance or a gun) I’d surely wish I’d made a different choice .

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Where would you spend the money? If you knew ahead of time that you would fall in the 0.000001% category, of course you would get the life raft but since you can't know that ahead of time, spending the money the 2nd option is far better option.

The best option is to sell the boat to some poor SOB and let him do the dying while you sit safely ashore.
So true … especially your final point .

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"Like guns -- liferafts also provide peace of mind --"
Wait. So, I can deduct both my bespoke shotguns and liferaft as medical (pyschiatric) expenses on my income tax?
I think you should try it. Let us know how it goes .
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Old 21-06-2017, 08:21   #60
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Re: Are liferafts really a rational expenditure

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Have you ever seen a life raft?

In anything but mill pond conditions, expect to get wet and have little more than a layer or plastic between you and the water.

Also that was a small runabout/cuddy cabin not a large cruising boat. Pure and unrealistic expectations that they would have been saved by a life raft.
Yes, I've seen far more rafts than you ever have. I know a man who spent more than a month in a life raft with his wife in the Pacific Ocean. There is no doubt in my mind that those men would have survived in a raft.

If you think it's not possible to survive 48 hours in a raft, you are sadly misinformed.
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