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Old 24-01-2020, 10:24   #136
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

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Originally Posted by RichMac View Post
I started navigating with paper charts and celestial, there was no choice then.
Watch "Yacht Navigation - how to be safe", https://youtu.be/iTQxLhp45lg

I really like the accuracy and ease of modern digital navigation, but many people still prefer the old traditional methods. Do some sailors still navigate with safety using just paper chart plotting and a sextant?
Or have we all switched off our navigation brains, and been seduced by the convenience of GPS?
This is simple. BOTH. An experienced navigator knows he needs at least two independent data sources. Bring your gps enabled iPad anywhere you go to back up your Garmin and your Coastal Explore on a bullet prove laptop.
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Old 24-01-2020, 11:47   #137
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

I would rather trust my chart and compass and depth soundings GPS is a handy tool but a sound knowledge in traditional methods is in my opinion a must. When I started sailing back in the early eighties one of the experienced yachties said that you're best navigational equipment are you're eyes.
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Old 24-01-2020, 12:51   #138
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

Now it's the easy way with a GPS but at age 72 and having had a boat since age 10 I had many years of drawing the course on a paper chart with magnetic headings and the time for each leg of the course. Notations for night travel included "should see marina lights at about 280" or "flashing red buoy at 10 (degrees) after turn". We got home or to our travel destination using this system on many dark nights, sometimes in the fog. Several years ago, with the arrival of GPS, the magnetic headings on the course drawn on the paper charts had true headings added. When the first GPS systems became available and started replacing LORAN (How many used that system?) the GPS screen had no landmarks, only a blank screen. You had to add your own way points, rock piles, marinas, islands, shoals, and any other points needed for navigation. Without knowing how to read a chart, accurate waypoints couldn't be added unless someone else entered them for you. Many years ago I acquired a sextant. It was used a few times but confidence remained low after being right on a few times but being dangerously far off for other attempts. Now I use the GPS for all travel but still have the old paper charts with the magnetic headings. Electronics may make boating easier and add sales to those new boaters who otherwise wouldn't have bought anything larger than a canoe or maybe a pontoon boat. Many of the younger boaters can't dock without a joystick and seem to navigate by watching the GPS rather than looking out on the water for nav points and potential collisions. We now have driverless cars so boats that navigate and dock themselves are closer than many would believe. Use your GPS with the chartplotter but learn the basics of navigation. You'll appreciate being out on the water more.
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Old 24-01-2020, 13:27   #139
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

Personally, I like to look at and use paper charts but they are pricey.
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Old 24-01-2020, 15:18   #140
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

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Originally Posted by Happ View Post
The answer is simple. Paper charts by the government will cease being printed in the next few years.
sorry : i don't agree. what most pleasure boaties don't appreciate is that charts are made (and ultimately paid for) by commercial shipping. that is why shipping routes are well surveyed / charted, but it's so different once you get off the beaten track.

as i mentioned earlier in this thread, lots of ships are converting to fully electronic navigation - but it is still going to be many many years before paper charts cease being available / updated.

cheers,
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Old 24-01-2020, 15:26   #141
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

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sorry : i don't agree. what most pleasure boaties don't appreciate is that charts are made (and ultimately paid for) by commercial shipping. that is why shipping routes are well surveyed / charted, but it's so different once you get off the beaten track.

as i mentioned earlier in this thread, lots of ships are converting to fully electronic navigation - but it is still going to be many many years before paper charts cease being available / updated.

cheers,
It's not that far away, NOAA says they will cease all paper chart production by 2025.

Quote:
As was noted in the National Charting Plan, released in November 2017, NOAA has been reviewing different approaches for making paper nautical charts more efficiently. This Sunsetting Traditional NOAA Paper Charts document or "Sunset Plan" describes NOAA's decision to sunset – that is, gradually and completely end – production of the traditional NOAA paper nautical charts and related raster products by January 2025. This is part of a strategy to improve the availability of the most up-to-date data for marine navigation in other NOAA products.
Don't know about other countries, but at least in the US the end is in sight. And by getting rid of the "related raster products" they are removing your ability to print-on-demand the traditional chart. You'll be able to print the ENC, but will have to provide the same input about what gets printed as you have to provide about what gets displayed in the electronic version.
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Old 24-01-2020, 15:58   #142
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

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It's not that far away, NOAA says they will cease all paper chart production by 2025.



Don't know about other countries, but at least in the US the end is in sight. And by getting rid of the "related raster products" they are removing your ability to print-on-demand the traditional chart. You'll be able to print the ENC, but will have to provide the same input about what gets printed as you have to provide about what gets displayed in the electronic version.

You will always have access to paper charts .

These charts will be produced by private enterprise , from data purchased from government hydrographic agencies

Taxpayer money is poorly spent when producing paper charts for recreational boaters
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Old 24-01-2020, 16:35   #143
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

Do you really think a private company is going to take the electronic data and re-draw a traditional chart in the way that we think of "paper" charts? I seriously doubt there is sufficient business in the recreational market to pay for that effort. And if there is, it will only be a market for the highly trafficked places, and not the out-of-the-way ones, the same thing we run into with all charting in this age.

You'll be able to purchase (or print your own) printed copies of the ENCs, but these will have all the foibles of their electronic display (labels placed by computer rather than human eye, land details no longer present...). There may even be some value-add material from the vendors to the recreational market, but I doubt the look-and-feel of "paper" charts will one of those features. At least that's how I see it going.
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Old 24-01-2020, 16:59   #144
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

I was advised by a friend who runs a charter vessel in the Los Angeles / Long Beach harbors that the Coast Guard requires him to have a paper chart(s). He has all the electronics.
So, if charts go out of publication the CG will have to change, apparently.
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Old 24-01-2020, 17:55   #145
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

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Originally Posted by Poche View Post
I was advised by a friend who runs a charter vessel in the Los Angeles / Long Beach harbors that the Coast Guard requires him to have a paper chart(s). He has all the electronics.
So, if charts go out of publication the CG will have to change, apparently.
It's possible he's operating on old info. The CG indicated that they were allowing electronic charting systems (i.e. not full ECDIS) a few years back.

Cite: https://navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=El...ChartsApproval

As to the ECS requirements, a somewhat friendlier overview is here:
https://homeport.uscg.mil/Lists/Cont...SAChandout.pdf
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Old 24-01-2020, 17:56   #146
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

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Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Do you really think a private company is going to take the electronic data and re-draw a traditional chart in the way that we think of "paper" charts? I seriously doubt there is sufficient business in the recreational market to pay for that effort. And if there is, it will only be a market for the highly trafficked places, and not the out-of-the-way ones, the same thing we run into with all charting in this age.

You'll be able to purchase (or print your own) printed copies of the ENCs, but these will have all the foibles of their electronic display (labels placed by computer rather than human eye, land details no longer present...). There may even be some value-add material from the vendors to the recreational market, but I doubt the look-and-feel of "paper" charts will one of those features. At least that's how I see it going.

...Iíve been using the superb Eagle Ray paper charts of Greece for years

Personal printing of charts from electronic data should be forbidden buy using copyright laws.

No need for hydrographic offices to give away their precious data for free

In the UK , paper charts by imray are superior for small craft navigation

I canít remember the name of the French and Italian small craft paper charts
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Old 24-01-2020, 18:59   #147
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

For the people who think that just because the Coast Guard, or any government agency, lets you do something, it must be a good idea, I suggest you look at some contrary observations.

For years, boats/ships legally needed paper charts. Then along comes electronic navigation. Itís "better." No more expensive paper charts. They can automate whole tranches of the chart production process. Itís wonderful. Eventually, theyíll let every boat use nothing but electronics. Until .....

There are a couple of accidents where lots of people are killed or millions of gallons of oil are spilled on somebodyís beaches, or name your disaster. If they can blame it on electronic navigation, things wonít be so peachy anymore.

Government regulations are often based on "what seems to work." Until it doesnít. I can give some examples.

Bridge officers didnít originally need special training on radar. Until the Stockholm and the Andrea Doria collided. That was blamed largely on neither ship knowing how to properly use the radar.

The CG decided that the exits on the Santa Barbara dive boat were acceptable. That was fine until there was a fire and 34 people died. I suspect that wonít continue to be the case.

Or the fact that for 20+ years the FAA decided it was easier, cheaper and more efficient to let Boeing largely self-certify their planes. The FAA could cut staff, Boeing could do things faster and cheaper. Everybody was happy. The system works; what can go wrong? The 737 Max.

Just because the government says itís OK, doesnít mean that itís the right or best solution.
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Old 24-01-2020, 20:40   #148
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
It's not that far away, NOAA says they will cease all paper chart production by 2025.



Don't know about other countries, but at least in the US the end is in sight. And by getting rid of the "related raster products" they are removing your ability to print-on-demand the traditional chart. You'll be able to print the ENC, but will have to provide the same input about what gets printed as you have to provide about what gets displayed in the electronic version.
Can't see the logic in this.

Firstly, assuming the the hydrographic services will transition to digital acquisition, recording and storage of data and can then readily display the consequent charts on screens rather than paper the would consequently be no requirement to print on paper then scan acquire "raster products" for digitization.

From a processing organization it would appear to be logical to store different types of data in different databases. Say for instance the depth sounding data from a survey allowed contour charts with reliable +/- 2" depth precision and the resulting database stored to this level of definition. In this instance any realistic sized print out of a largish area of bottom would end up a big black blob - one would need to be able to define contours of say 5', 10' 15' etc. Easy enough to extract these along with their positional information from a depth only database.

Consequent to the practicable data storage and processing requirements one would need to specify what the many different users of the data required for their specific usage as part of the program setup.

The US congress takes the view that the taxpayer has already paid for the acquisition of hydrographic data and should not have to pay for it twice. The ASEAN countries have taken the view that all seafarers are safer with ready access to hydrographic data and consequently makes it freely available. Many other countries use similar logic.

I recall from decades ago that when I purchased paper charts from a chart agent that they had an individual permanently employed as a chart corrector. Later on I went to purchase a chart, at the same chart and map store, instead of it having been bought up to date to all the NOTEM,s I received the chart and photo copies of the relevant NOTEM,s - the permanent chart corrector was no more. I don't know how it works in other countries but if I subscribe to the Australian hydrographic office's chart distribution system I can download an up-to-date electronic chart for display on numerous devices over the internet at any convenient time.

The latest charts, fully corrected, to be displayed on multiple devices, with the vessel position shown accurate within a few metres has to be practicably safer than any other alternative even with it's deficiencies.
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Old 24-01-2020, 22:32   #149
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happ View Post
The answer is simple. Paper charts by the government will cease being printed in the next few years.

From another thread last November:



Quote:
Originally Posted by anacapaisland42 View Post
NOAA will still provide access to paper chart products based on ENC data, either through third-party vendors or through the NOAA Custom Chart system (now in prototype phase). The online NOAA Custom Chart (NCC) application lets users create their own paper charts with NOAA ENC data. The user can define the scale and size of custom-made nautical charts, then download them in a special PDF format.
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Old 25-01-2020, 03:03   #150
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Re: Traditional or digital navigation - which is safer?

We use what is called COASTAL NAVIGATION AND PILOTING......with paper charts, dividers, and parallel rules.....and of course the ships compass, and a hand bearing compass and knot meter. That results in taking bearings, and using fixes, running fixes, estimated positions ( E.P's ), and ded reconing ( Deduced from time, speed, distance and direction ). Add in a good cruising guide and coast pilot.

However, we also use our own personal hand held GPS, and a binacle mounted GPS if mounted on the bare boat charter vessel.

Also, for Newport Bay, we could use, the depth sounder when needed in fog or limited visibilty to track to off shore sea sea buoys or channel entrance buoys .

Actually, the good responsible skipper uses all aspects of navigation.

I actually heard this MAYDAY, out on the ocean , ( San Pedro Channel ) from a motor vessel....He called a Mayday.....yep...he was out of fuel and wanted the coasties to come out and save is sorry okole......

The coasties asked his position, and his actual answer, was I DO NOT KNOW, MY GPS IS NOT WORKING. So the coasties asked him where he departed from, and what heading had he been holding, and what time did he depart Avalon, Catalina Island.

The super captain had no clue as to a D.R. track line. The coasties told him, what is position roughly was, and that he could call SEA TOW..... NO, he did not want to do that because it would cost him money.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is just one of many....

But, our own situation one time, on a sailing club vessel, departing Catalina, sunny day and about mid channel.....the problem was that the ships mag compass was not working, neither was the depth sounder. But, I had my hand bearing compass and a chart.

Beautiful day, and we had just passed the off shore oil platforms, mid channel, when I heard a fog whistle that was on the oil platform. I turned my head around, and here came a huge, low vis fog bank rolling on toward shore, and our destination Newport Bay, Calif.

Wham, we are popeye, IFR, near zero visibilty.... we we did our best with what we had, and actually listened to the temps at Newport Bay, it was pretty high temps and
we figured that the fog would possibly disipate close to shore.

Sure enough, the fog lifted when we were about 1/4 mile off the channel entrance buoy at Newport Bay. Also, I had my headings up the channel already plotted out navaid to navaid on the Newport Harbor Chart. to take us to our docks......

Without the ships navigation equipment, compass, knot meter, and depth sounder, we would have entered the harbor and if still low vis, could have anchored out of the main stream of marine traffic, and advised the sailing club of the situation.

However, what we did was to use COASTAL PILOTING and our Hand Bearing Compass and estimated our speed . Plus , no depth sounder to track the 100 ft sounding to the sea buoy.

Due to the warmer temps in the harbor, the fog disipated and all turned out well.

The next day, I went down to West Marine and bought both Erica and I hand held GPS,s and that way we could add in the electronic whizding, crutches, so we would be prepared and use both Coastal Piloting as well as the GPS for our navigating.

Also, I, to this day, match up the ship compass and the auto pilot heading with my hand bearing compass when I first board a sailing club or bare boat vessel from a charter company.

Again, that is us....

It might be a good plan to take all aspects into consideration as part of skippers responsibility .

longest passage that I ever took was delivering a new ERiCSON 36 from Cabo San Lucas, Mexico up to Los Angeles Harbor...The owner had raced down to Cabo.

Turns out that .the new super duper SATNAV did not operate, the Auto Pilot did not operate. and the three bewiskerd dudes that wanted to get the experience turned out to be stone alcoholics..... The only ones that I could trust were Erica and Myself.....I used the three guys as an auto pilot when we were off watch. They could hold a heading, sort of.

I took the mid watches, and Erica and I did the Navigating and chart plotting except when we were trying to get a short few hours of sleep....not much sleep in about a two week trip .

Never sailed with those three again.

Point being, we strongly suggest using all aspects of navigation and seamanship ,

Both GPS and Coastal Piloting and Navigation can be combined. Not just one or the other.
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