Suplimental navigation Lights--Diving Etc.

[thinwater]

Probably a dumb question, but I checked all the old threads and no one answered the key question, so I'll simplify it.

Dive boats display "restricted ability to maneuver" at night. Red/white/red. They have a short mast with these mounted. Ships have larger navigation light masts with more options.

If a sailboat wished to display this signal, without a permanently mounted nav light mast, how would you do it? And which SPECIFIC parts will work for this? In the past, people have responded "just hang the lights," but I'll be darned if I can find the appropriate lights. White is easy, red not so much.

People also discuss in threads what lights you would show under sea anchor or drogue, but they never explain how they would do it. Because I'm pretty sure they never have.

So SPECIFICALLY, if you are not a ship with a navigation status light mast, how do you show any of the light combinations that pertain to limited ability to maneuver?


Thanks!

[Benz]

I have both red and white LED headlamps; I suppose I could string them on a cap shroud in sequence. But I can't imagine a scenario where I'd be diving at night in places where boats might be passing and it was too deep to anchor.
If I'm hove-to, I show a bright white riding light, the same as if I were at anchor.

[Jammer]

I looked into this once but decided my limited sailing budget was best spent elsewhere and so I did not install the subject lights when I rewired my mast.


I came up with two solutions on paper:


1) Lopolight 180 degree lights in pairs on either side of the mast. These are available in white, green, and red. They are prohibitively expensive at over $200 for each half. I just tried to check prices and they appear to have been recently discontinued.


2) Hella NaviLED all-around lights, available in white, red and green, these can be installed in pairs on either side of the mast and masked with black paint to minimize spill (i.e. unwanted reflections off the mast). They are deck mount so a bracket would have to be fabricated to attach them to the mast (not difficult). These are $129 at West Marine. Here are the photos and diagrams from my notes, checking prices I see there has been a minor redesign that does not affect function or mounting.


The colregs stateii) If it is impracticable to comply with paragraph (b) (i) of this section by exhibiting only one all-round light, two all-round lights shall be used suitably positioned or screened so thatthey appear, as far as practicable, as one light at a distance of one mile.


The smallest angle of visual acuity for most people is around one arc minute (1/60 degree). Therefore, most people can tell two lights are, say, 6" apart (one foot) at a distance of about 0.5 / sin 1/60 feet = 1718 or about a quarter mile. Lights spaced up to 24" apart would therefore meet the letter and spirit of the colregs. Mast sections are small enough that narrower spacing can easily be used.

[Jammer]

Anyway the idea would be that you install enough pairs of those on your mast at 2 meter spacing apart, with separate colors a few inches apart as needed, such that you can display whatever aspects you need. Red-white-red (restricted in ability to maneuver), red-green (sailing), red-red (nuc), and white-red-red (aground) would be the ones of interest.


For occasional use I would make a bail out of heavy stiff wire with loops at the top and bottom and a platform in between, and run a pair of 18 gauge wires inside a length of single-braid rope to carry power. Assemble the lights to the platforms, hoist when needed, and connect the power leads in the downhaul to 12v.

[boatman61]

Hove to or lying ahull just turn everything on and hope your seen..

[alaskanviking]

Military/commercial boats use a light mast aproximately 1"-3" diameter with brackets or shelves welded on at the appropriate spots. 1 light per side of the mast so you have 360 degrees. this doubles the amount of lights you need. there isnt a lot of inexpensive LED all around lights for this application since its mostly for commercial vessels. unfortunately this raises the price a lot. Colregs ANNEX 1, 2i (ii) says 2-3 lights in a vertical line on vessels under 20M and shall space lights 1m (3.2ft) apart and space them evenly. on the smaller dive boats (7-8m rhibs, some mini tugs to 12m) i have worked on i have seen most of the light masts with a total length of ~3-4ft, so i suspect this isnt regulated as much. those boats operated in san diego bay and lights were primarily to warn other vessels close in

For a sailboat you have a couple of different possibilities, everything is a compromise.
1) fabricate a light mast and mount for the top of your mast - PRO: best visibility, easy to wire CON: drastically raises height of mast ~ 6ft by the colregs, extra windage, bridge hieght issues ect. should probably be removable or foldable

2) for dive lights specifically IE anchored no sails, you could string up 1 or 2 strings of lights, connect them to your halyards and raise the up. if you could do it in a way you can have the light visible you could probably get away with 1 string of lights. if i was going to do this id mound a small plastic project box near the bottom of the mast and install a waterproof connector with cap, then you plug in and raise the halyard. this is probably a good emergency system as well. the biggest issue is if your sails are up you cant see these.

3) you can permanently mount on the side of your mast. still need one light per side, stringing the wire through the mast may be a pain, cant really use this with the sails up as they would obscure the lights.

only a few brands that make these that i found;
Hella naviled 360 pro - 1.5w ~$80-100 appears to be the better deal money vs low power

Aquasignal series 34 - 6W ~ $80-$150

there was a side mount hella LED (maybe aquasignal or perko) all round light but i can find them now. probably the better to mount on the side of the mast as sails and lines wouldnt have anything to catch on

Lopolights 1.4watts $327. can get larger 3nm and 5nm versions. lopolights are expensive, but appear to have the lowest power consumption. form factor appears to be bettter to mount to the side of the mast.

OGM may have new led allround lights, i only found red however so if your just diving than this is an option. the q series looks new and i couldn't find much information on them. they may have a side mount low profile one that would work mounted on the mast.

just found a chinese version on ebay, seller newlifeFR. looks like a copy of a perko bulb light with a led bulb. $13-15 each, was no details on power consumption. may be a good option to gut and put your own lights in. id probably lean more this way if i was string up a set on a halyard

Perko Bulb lights - 18 watts, $80-$100 PRK106/prk108 models

Seadog SDG4 bulb lights $80-100

so for a rough calculation led lights on a light mast or mounted to the mast your looking at aproximately $480 + the cost of a tricolor. you can use the two white lights as an anchor light. may be in your better interest to use a combo tricolor/anchor light as that will be less power consumption however it would increase the windage up there further.

[alaskanviking]

I've have been working on military and commercial small boats for a long time. currently in the process of refitting my mast and have been looking into this project for a while. mast was wired for a light mast in san diego (2019), but i wasn't happy with it, so i will redo it while i am painting the mast here in Norfolk. i also had a light mast socket made, but found its too far forward and interferes with the wind sensor so ill move it aft on the mast head.

another issue i found is the anchor/tricolor at the top of the mast was partially blocked by the wind sensor and windex when mounted on the mast. it was even raised up on a little bracket ~1-2" but was still blocked. i suspect from a mile or so away its ok, but the real issue is most of your problems are going to be close to your boat. i did not get warm fuzzys that the anchor light was visible enough at closer range. sailboats are already at a disadvantage as people don't normally look up either. san diego bay had a lot of background lighting. I've seen a few accidents and close calls from this scenario, that i couldn't not fix this for the better. i noticed in Colregs Rule 30 that vessels under 20m MAY use available working lights to illuminate decks, so i am thinking 2 small low power single led lights (like courtesy lights) on the ends facing down at the deck may be a good solution here without drawing a lot of power.

the wires the riggers installed are 3 lengths of Ancor 3/12 guage cables with plastic cover. very bulky and takes too much room. wire colors are a pain since theyre all the same. looks like 14gauge is a better bet, probably could get away with 16guage seeing its LED and i have a 24v system. current thoughts are to give each light pair its own negative/ground but the alternative is to use one larger negative/ground for all the lights except the nav lights which would have thier own ground. i decided to make my own cable. use the coordinated wire color with the appropriate light color to make life easier, IE red wire for red light, white wire for white ect. grey is the correct ABYC color for nav lights, maybe pink or a light red for the second group of red ect. use expandable poly sleeving to contain everything. it may be a good idea to pair wires in a smaller sleeving, then put these smaller sleeves into the larger one. better abrasion resistance and helps organize the wires. either use a waterproof project box with terminal strips or waterproof connectors at the mast head.

Still working on the light mast plan. i put a temporary light mast there to mount the current tricolor/anchor nav light up ~ 14" - vastly improved visibility. goal is to have red over green, tricolor, and red white red (i dive, and have a scuba compressor onboard). red over green is important, although i have seen one setup that way in my lifetime. tricolor on top is not as good close in, deck level running lights are not as easy to see from a distance in heavy swells. deck level running lights with red over green gives you the best of both worlds and maximizes visibility. light mast goes into the socket/mount and has 2 bolts securing it so its removable.

current thoughts are to use brackets at the edge of the mast sides for the bottom red lights and green light, this helps keep the total height shorter. the light mast is a simple heavy wall aluminum pole. will weld on brackets for whatever light i use. with 1M (3ft) spacing it would raise my total mast height another 6ft. I'm not totally comfortable with that, just seems excessive. i think if i drop that to 3.5-4ft and space evenly it would work. that would keep the red over green or red over red at the correct spacing, red white red would only be used for diving and visibility close in to warn boats near mine is more important than visibility from far away. the small dive rhibs and work boats I've operated/worked on, do the same, likely for the same reason. many of those boats mount their light mast to a ratcheting antennae mount, or triangle brackets that let the mast fold down. i cant really do that since the red over green is an offshore light likely to be used in heavy weather. tricolor would go on the top however as an alternative you could use a good quality bicolor and stern light which realistically can be put anywhere as long as its visible and doesn't interfere with the other lights. you could also make a bracket at the front and back of the mast which would increase visibility and take some of the weight off the light mast. you can get much better quality and better selection of bicolors and sternlights than you can get colored all around lights. may be a good idea to add some 1/8" dyneema lines from the top/mid of the light mast to the top of the mast head for added support, may keep off the birds.

this is a rough plan of what im doing/ have started on. use it as you will. probably overkill and costs more but I'm fine with that. I've had far too many adventures with poorly lit vessels to let be as it is. I have a bluewater offshore boat so keeping things robust is better if things get nasty out. still updating/modifying this plan but the final product is likely to be close to what's described. the pictures show the masthead in san diego ~ 2019. mast was only up about 5 months before the boat was trucked to the east coast. the antennae is big but one of the better ones, may rethink that one. the temporary mast light is the pole with the circle. i kept the Orca tricolor/anchor for the moment but i think the circle is two big. i tested it and the visibility is much better than before so i am on the right track on that aspect.

[mitiempo]

Den Han Rotterdam (DHR) has lights at affordable prices to do this.

https://www.dhr.nl/dhr-marine/produc...n-lights/dhr35

[hpeer]

I typically have 2 anchor lights on; mast head and a second one in the cockpit.

Hit once in a French Island (“the wind, she take me!”).

And almost hit at Montserrat. Guy pulling up anchor, leaving after dark.
Bowman: You see this guy?
Helmsman: I do now!!

Point being it dosent matter what you have if they don’t see it. I am considering some kind of orange/pink/vermillion high intensity strobe maybe mounted on the wind gen pole.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Den Han Rotterdam (DHR) has lights at affordable prices to do this.

https://www.dhr.nl/dhr-marine/produc...n-lights/dhr35

Interesting. I was unable to find prices anywhere or a USA supplier.


Some further searching reveals that the Aqua Signal 40 series is available in a hoistable configuration in red, white, and green. They use incandescent lights, 40 watts for red or green, 25 watts for white.


There is an older thread here that mentions them:


https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...s-13085-6.html


There are presently some red ones, at least, on ebay for $50 each, new old stock.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Den Han Rotterdam (DHR) has lights at affordable prices to do this.

https://www.dhr.nl/dhr-marine/produc...n-lights/dhr35

A useful response (for a sailor)!

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by thinwater

A useful response (for a sailor)!

Correction. Not readily available in the US, and ~ $150 with shipping and tax where you can get them.



Aquasignal makes the Series 40 hoistable, but also not readily available in the US and about $125 plus shipping each. Ouch. Limited demand.

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Probably a dumb question, but I checked all the old threads and no one answered the key question, so I'll simplify it.

Dive boats display "restricted ability to maneuver" at night. Red/white/red.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by thinwater

Probably a dumb question, but I checked all the old threads and no one answered the key question, so I'll simplify it.

Dive boats display "restricted ability to maneuver" at night. Red/white/red.

The only time a dive boat would be permitted/required to show lights indicating she is RAM would be if the boat had divers in the water who were working. "Restricted in Ability to Maneuver" is only applicable to a vessel who by the "nature of her work" has limited maneuverability and who is not anchored, moored or aground. In the case of a dive vessel this would probably be a situation where the diver is tethered to the boat in some fashion: surface supplied air hoses, comms or video cables, or due to adverse conditions of current, viz, etc a tether is required.

If you have recreational divers in the water at night and you are not anchored, moored or aground then you would display "vessel underway": RED/GREEN sidelights and WHITE stern light. If you are anchored or moored then just show anchor lights.

This doesn't help with your initial request for how to put up proper lights when engaged in something out of the ordinary, but I thought it useful to clarify that recreational diving does not require any special lighting or signals.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Correction. Not readily available in the US, and ~ $150 with shipping and tax where you can get them.

Available in Canada - Trotac Marine in Victoria - for about half that amount - in Canadian dollars.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by Nani Kai

The only time a dive boat would be permitted/required to show lights indicating she is RAM would be if the boat had divers in the water who were working. "Restricted in Ability to Maneuver" is only applicable to a vessel who by the "nature of her work" has limited maneuverability and who is not anchored, moored or aground. In the case of a dive vessel this would probably be a situation where the diver is tethered to the boat in some fashion: surface supplied air hoses, comms or video cables, or due to adverse conditions of current, viz, etc a tether is required.

If you have recreational divers in the water at night and you are not anchored, moored or aground then you would display "vessel underway": RED/GREEN sidelights and WHITE stern light. If you are anchored or moored then just show anchor lights.

This doesn't help with your initial request for how to put up proper lights when engaged in something out of the ordinary, but I thought it useful to clarify that recreational diving does not require any special lighting or signals.

I must vehemently reject these statements. the hair on the back of my neck went up because this advice is so unsafe. i don't want to be the A-hole and call you out, but i teach this stuff regularly for decades, and the advice your giving here could get someone killed or the boat owner legally hemmed up in serious charges if there was an accident. you would legally be accountable for accidents that are caused by or result from your displaying incorrect light/ sound/ distress/ or flag signals.

for diving you display a code alpha flag in the day with correct day shapes, and RAM lights at night. RAM isn't just for commercial or work. both signals are only displayed while you have divers in the water. COLREGS Rule 27 (b), (d), and (e) are pretty clear on this. if your boat is big enough you have more day shapes and lights rule 27 (d).

this is a safety issue! you don't want vessels coming up to your boat, while you have divers in the water as the props could kill someone. legally that would be the boat owners fault for not displaying the correct signals, ie manslaughter.

you only display vessel underway lights when your underway! again its a safety and legal issue. other boat operators are making decisions in the operation of their boats depending on the accurate depiction of your light signals.

in this specific example displaying underway lights, or just an anchor lights indicates a coast guard RHIB, neighbor or other boat can come along side, and they will not be looking for divers when they do. which means you knowingly put your divers in danger. if boat needs to come alongside and they see the red/white/red that is the indication to call over radio to verify the safety of doing so first!