Sidelight Placement under power >20Meters

[Student_Driver]

I was re-reading the Nav Rules while sailing recently on a >20M sailboat. We were doing a great deal of motoring, which as I understand, means that we would be classified as a vessel under power. Not a sailboat.

Given this, would the rules for sidelight placement “not forward of the masthead light” apply?

If so, many boat manufacturers and owners would be in violation. This seems unlikely. Consequently, I guess that there must be some exceptions but I could not find them.

Thots?

[goboatingnow]

That rule only applies to vessels over 20 metres, the vast majority of sailing boats would be less than that.

[Student_Driver]

Yes. I am specifically asking about boats over 20 meters.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Student_Driver

Yes. I am specifically asking about boats over 20 meters.

What sailing boats are you aware of that breach the placement requirements

On most > 20 metre ( 65+) sailboats there is usually adequate deck structures to correctly place the lights

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Student_Driver

I was re-reading the Nav Rules while sailing recently on a >20M sailboat. We were doing a great deal of motoring, which as I understand, means that we would be classified as a vessel under power. Not a sailboat.

Given this, would the rules for sidelight placement “not forward of the masthead light” apply?

If so, many boat manufacturers and owners would be in violation. This seems unlikely. Consequently, I guess that there must be some exceptions but I could not find them.

Thots?

Yes it applies.

I find your contention dubious.

Can you give specific examples of such violations?

[hlev00]

I am not seeing in the ColRegs where the sidelights are not to be ahead of the masthead light. The mast head is to be “forward” but I don’t see any constraints the placement of sidelights relative to this forward masthead. There may also be an aft masthead light that is only required above 50M.
Harry

[Student_Driver]

In the rules that I have on my iPad application (not sure the source or accuracy), in International Rules, Annex 1, Part 3, Section (b) it says,

"On Power Driven Vessels of 20 Meters or more in length the sidelights shall not be placed in front of the forward masthead lights. They shall be placed at or near the side of the vessel."

In Part A, General, Rule 3 (b), it says

"The term power-driven vessel means any vessel propelled by machinery.

in Rule 3, (c) says "Sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not used."

So, when under power, sailboats are considered power boats and power boats over 20M need to have sidelights not forward of the masthead light.

Now we know that Nautor, Hanse, Oyster and many other manufacturers make boats over 20M and not one (in my knowledge) has side lights abeam or abaft abeam of the masthead light.

What am I missing?

[Student_Driver]

Originally Posted by StuM

Yes it applies.

I find your contention dubious.

Can you give specific examples of such violations?

I am not sure that there are violations. Rather, my assumption is that the manufacturers (and their attorneys) know the rules and further, that I am missing something. My assumption is that there is an exception that I've missed in my reading.

On the other hand, if the rules are, as I've read them, then I'd ask you to cite any examples of production sailing yachts over 20M from any of the top mass builders than have sidelights located abeam (or abaft abeam) of the masthead lights.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Student_Driver

On the other hand, if the rules are, as I've read them, then I'd ask you to cite any examples of production sailing yachts over 20M from any of the top mass builders than have sidelights located abeam (or abaft abeam) of the masthead lights.

It was your contention, not mine, so finding evidence of failure to comply lies with you

[Student_Driver]

I am not on trial. I have asked a question about the rules for lights on sailboats over 20M while under power. I am certain that most production sailing yachts in the 20-30M range have the sidelights at or near the bow, well ahead of the masthead.

I am not going to post dozens of photos and links b/c you have a dearth of knowledge.

[Statistical]

The claim was many manufacturers and boat owners would be in violation.

Sailing vessels over 20m are incredibly rare. So no most boat owners would not be in violation even if every sailing vessel over 20m was lighted improperly.

[rslifkin]

I'm not seeing any exceptions listed in the COLREGS for this one. The only thing that might do it is the mention of the "forward" masthead light. It's possible (but not clear) that the rule is only intended to apply when displaying 2 masthead lights (optional for vessels under 50 meters, required for 50+ meters).

[PippaB]

Originally Posted by Student_Driver

...I am not going to post dozens of photos and links b/c you have a dearth of knowledge.

And because I have nothing better to do (and find this to be somewhat of an interesting question)

Here is the bow of the Hanse 675 (21.1m). Pretty sure that the sidelights are not what the marketing folks thought we'd be looking at in this photo, but there they are on the pulpit. The marketing brochures aren't exactly designed for this research, but I didn't see a second set further aft anywhere. There's a perfect spot for them on the Targa/Bimini, but I guess it would mess up the carbon.


source

And here's an Oyster 745 with sidelights on the pulpit. Again, didn't see a second set somewhere (but that absolutely doesn't mean they don't exist).


source

Of course, this does get to the discussion of motor sailing. Yes, COLREGS is clear that motor-sailing = motor vessel, but if you don't want the sidelights obscured you want them someplace that sails (such as big, overlapping genoas) won't cause them to be obscured over any part of their visible range. How do you rationalize two somewhat conflicting legal requirements?....

[hlev00]

Originally Posted by Student_Driver

In the rules that I have on my iPad application (not sure the source or accuracy), in International Rules, Annex 1, Part 3, Section (b) it says,

"On Power Driven Vessels of 20 Meters or more in length the sidelights shall not be placed in front of the forward masthead lights. They shall be placed at or near the side of the vessel."

…
."

Interesting. I don’t recall from my USCG class the annexes being covered or at least nothing from them showing up on the tests. I don’t know what the purpose of the annexes are. I am glad you aren’t writing tests.

[Student_Driver]

Originally Posted by Statistical

The claim was many manufacturers and boat owners would be in violation.

Sailing vessels over 20m are incredibly rare. So no most boat owners would not be in violation even if every sailing vessel over 20m was lighted improperly.

Many is not the same as most. I never said most. Nonetheless there are hundreds of production sailboats on the seas in the 20 to 50M category this section of the rules covers. That is many, but not most.

I’m sorry that I came on strong. I should provide context. I just spent six weeks motor sailing a 20 meter boat and this question came up.

I have little doubt that many boats would be in violation of there is no valid exception to this rule.

I have had a boat porn addiction for decades. I’ve lusted after hundreds of boats in that size category and studied the photos. I’ve also sailed a bunch and seen many boats in marinas. Been to boat shows. I have a large data set and a good memory.

I am confident that Nautor, Oyster, Hanse, Moody, Hallberg etc etc put the sidelights at or near the bow for production boats in the 20-25 Meter range.

We had several professional and a few experienced amateur sailors discussing this question and we could not resolve it onboard.

So I thought I’d ask.

Appreciate the helpful answers!