Screen brightness-MFD vs Tablet

[wingssail]

Let's change this discussion slightly.

I need to replace the rugged tablet we use on deck, the battery is dying.

The features which are most important to ms are screen brightness, racing software, and of course economics, in a rugged device.

Screen brightness (Sunlight viewable screen) seems like the hardest feature to find; my tablet is 1000Nits and it is unsatisfactory.

Today my neighbor showed me his new Garmin MFD 62cv plotter. I was astonished at the brightness of it's screen, it's viewable in direct sublight, and it's price was only $549! Of course it is unsuitable for me, the software for racing is completely inadequate, there is no "drop protection", the UI is hopeless, and there is no battery and sonar is of no use to us.

But that screen!

So why can't we get a rugged tablet with that screen quality at that price point?


Additional thought:
Maybe it's the power required for a really bright screen? MFD's rely on ship's power. The tablet must run on a battery. Let's see:

The Garmin uses 1.25A at maximum power usage (presumably for maximum screen brightness) which is 15watts. For an hour this is 15000 milliwatts. What tablet has 15,000 mAh battery? None. And looking at the 10" Garmin plotter, the power usage is up to 6.0Amps. That's 72,000mAh, Wow! I get it.

[Kelkara]

I can't answer your question ... but my personal beef is that my old garmin handheld has a full colour screen that uses reflected light for visibility ... the brighter the sun shines, the more visible the screen. The backlight is only used in darkness ... why has this technology gone away?

[goboatingnow]

Laptop people are not prepared in general to pay a premium for true sunlight readable lcd screens.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

I can't answer your question ... but my personal beef is that my old garmin handheld has a full colour screen that uses reflected light for visibility ... the brighter the sun shines, the more visible the screen. The backlight is only used in darkness ... why has this technology gone away?

It hasn’t gone away at all. But it’s a niche market product. Transreflective lcds are available in smaller sizes.

These days sunlight readable use conventional lcd , with very high brightness backlights and optically bonded face glass to eliminate condensation.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Laptop people are not prepared in general to pay a premium for true sunlight readable lcd screens.

Well, that's not very specific.

Aside from the fact that you look down on laptop people as not being prepared to pay, are you saying that if I wasn't too cheap I could find the product I need?

A smallish (8") rugged battery powered android tablet with a screen as bright as my friend's Garmin, on which I can run standard android apps?

I have not yet seen such a device although the TriplTek 8" might be one, but why the price point difference?

[Bobby Lex]

I'm not sure it's a "brightness" issue. I think it's polarization. At least that's what I encounter when I use my IPad Pro. I can see the screen fine without sunglasses, but when glare from the sun off the water makes me have to put my sunglasses on, the screen looks grey and I have trouble making out details on it.

Marine MFDs are designed to allow users to wear polarized sunglasses and still see everything on the screen clearly. Tablets generally don't account for that. Probably because tablet users don't generally wear sunglasses when using them.

Bob

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

I'm not sure it's a "brightness" issue. I think it's polarization. At least that's what I encounter when I use my IPad Pro. I can see the screen fine without sunglasses, but when glare from the sun off the water makes me have to put my sunglasses on, the screen looks grey and I have trouble making out details on it.

Marine MFDs are designed to allow users to wear polarized sunglasses and still see everything on the screen clearly. Tablets generally don't account for that. Probably because tablet users don't generally wear sunglasses when using them.

Bob

Bob, thanks for that thought, but today, trying to get to the bottom of this issue we did some testing in direct sunlight, without sun glasses. The cheap Garmin MFD was so superior we thought it was magic, until we checked the power usage.

[goboatingnow]

Marine lcd often have polarisers hence can’t be seen at certain angles if you wear polarised sun glasses. Mostly they are on smaller monochrome displays.

Of course you can buy rugged sunlight readable laptops. Winmate For example https://www.winmate.com/

Modern MFDs do not typically use polarisers because it would make the large screen impossible to read with certain sun glasses.

WhAt they do is use very bright backlights and optically bonded glass protectors.

Underneath it’s a standard lcd at the core.

As I said you can buy sunlight rugged laptops and tablets if you want abd can stomach the high costs.

I don’t see what the issue is.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Marine lcd often have polarisers hence can’t be seen at certain angles if you wear polarised sun glasses. Mostly they are on smaller monochrome displays.

Of course you can buy rugged sunlight readable laptops. Winmate For example https://www.winmate.com/

Modern MFDs do not typically use polarisers because it would make the large screen impossible to read with certain sun glasses.

WhAt they do is use very bright backlights and optically bonded glass protectors.

Underneath it’s a standard lcd at the core.

As I said you can buy sunlight rugged laptops and tablets if you want abd can stomach the high costs.

I don’t see what the issue is.

Yes, you don't see what the issue is. Winmate tablets for example, are advertised as sunlight readable, yet the 7" android one is only 650Nits. Is that supposed to be better than my optical bonded rugged which has a 1000nit spec? There are other brands, but I'm not finding the solution that fits my need.

Anyhow I think I answered my own question: A brighter tablet needs more power and batteries just are not big enough to match what ship's power can do. But thanks for your help.

[ItDepends]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yes, you don't see what the issue is. Winmate tablets for example, are advertised as sunlight readable, yet the 7" android one is only 650Nits. Is that supposed to be better than my optical bonded rugged which has a 1000nit spec? There are other brands, but I'm not finding the solution that fits my need.

Anyhow I think I answered my own question: A brighter tablet needs more power and batteries just are not big enough to match what ship's power can do. But thanks for your help.

wingsail,

It's an impossible design problem for exactly the reasons you outline.

• You can not see a 650 nit screen in full sun.
• You can not drive a screen to sufficient brightness to REALLY be sunlight viewable off a tablet sized battery and still have the kind of battery life that a tablet maker needs to be able to brag about.

There is no way to square that circle. To see the problem all you have to do is see how long a tablet battery lasts at its brightest setting, and at its dimmest, and then add at least 50% MORE power draw at the high end. Add to that that most tablet designs do not have the thermal management to tolerate an extra 50% constant power draw, even if it was supplied by cable.

There are other issues that cause me to dismiss a tablet as a practical cockpit navigation device, but this is one of the worst. And to be clear, I use and like our tablet as a additional screen below decks. And it serves as an emergency backup in case that is ever needed.

[AKA-None]

Well interesting enough that problem was easily solved on the One Laptop Per Child program

There were two screens

One col overlaid with a paper white screen

I have one at home that runs Linux

Easily seen in full sun and very low power requirements

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

wingsail,

It's an impossible design problem for exactly the reasons you outline.

• You can not see a 650 nit screen in full sun.
• You can not drive a screen to sufficient brightness to REALLY be sunlight viewable off a tablet sized battery and still have the kind of battery life that a tablet maker needs to be able to brag about.

There is no way to square that circle. To see the problem all you have to do is see how long a tablet battery lasts at its brightest setting, and at its dimmest, and then add at least 50% MORE power draw at the high end. Add to that that most tablet designs do not have the thermal management to tolerate an extra 50% constant power draw, even if it was supplied by cable.

There are other issues that cause me to dismiss a tablet as a practical cockpit navigation device, but this is one of the worst. And to be clear, I use and like our tablet as a additional screen below decks. And it serves as an emergency backup in case that is ever needed.

Well, Thank you guys for that, but I figured it out by myself and put it in my original post. I should not have bothered you.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

...There are other issues that cause me to dismiss a tablet as a practical cockpit navigation device, but this is one of the worst. And to be clear, I use and like our tablet as a additional screen below decks. And it serves as an emergency backup in case that is ever needed.

ItDepends, Maybe you are mixing up a couple of different threads. I don't rely on my tablet for navigation all the time. We do our navigation down below, on a laptop with OpenCPN. The tablet is more of a toy than anything. But we like it.

And I know that MFD chart plotters are better if you want a full time on-deck navigation. I don't. We don't cruise sitting in a captain's chair with a MFD in front of us, and we certainly don't race that way. Lotta people do. That's fine. We don't.

What we do is, we've someone on deck with that tablet in their hand and they tell us how far to the layline, how many seconds until we tack, what will the true wind be on the next leg, and which direction is the finish line. And that's not counting the starting line situation. Right now that person is my wife. She's the best we've had in the five years we've had this software and the tablet. I did it myself 22 years ago with a tethered screen when I navigated on another boat for Sydney Hobart, I want to get her a better device but it's sad the technology has not advanced as much as I'd like.

We also bring it on deck when on passage, mostly for entertainment, but we don't need it and it's a good thing too since it has such a limited battery life. At least when we're cruising we have a dodger which gives us some shade. the tablet stays there.

Now I'm going to buy a new one and I'll probably spend more than I want because no technology companies have solved the problem.

What I really want is a full android e-ink tablet. e-ink seems like it has better viewability, but none of them are fully android compatible yet.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yes, you don't see what the issue is. Winmate tablets for example, are advertised as sunlight readable, yet the 7" android one is only 650Nits. Is that supposed to be better than my optical bonded rugged which has a 1000nit spec? There are other brands, but I'm not finding the solution that fits my need.



Anyhow I think I answered my own question: A brighter tablet needs more power and batteries just are not big enough to match what ship's power can do. But thanks for your help.

The answer is mass commercial tablets will never be suitable as specialised lcds are needed. Hence the solution cannot come from that market

Hence its either dedicate ruggedised sunlight tablets etc or you buy a MFD.

personally for reliability , ease of use and outdoor suitability thd modern MFD can’t be beaten for value/performance

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Well interesting enough that problem was easily solved on the One Laptop Per Child program

There were two screens

One col overlaid with a paper white screen

I have one at home that runs Linux

Easily seen in full sun and very low power requirements

Thanks. Interesting information.