Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Your having a larf..
That's Coastal waters..

You're confusing the concepts of inshore, coastal, offshore with what's essentially defined in Colregs - if it's not confined by width, depth or proximity of navigational hazards, then it's open. Open water, open ocean.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Everyone. It’s our boating culture.

Ferries and large ships have right of way, period where I’m from.

You try to grant some leeway to commercial fishing boats too, out of respect.

You change course well before any collision or navrules are coming into play and navigate with courtesy and respect.

As an extreme example, I challenge anyone to go into New York Harbor, Which is wide open for navigation in all directions, and assert your stand on status with the Staten Island ferry. See where that gets you. Ha ha.

Where are you from?
Are you seriously saying the Staten Island ferries don't follow the rules?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Chotu

OK, if that’s the case, then get in front of the ferry that goes between port Jefferson. NY and Connecticut. In the wide open Long Island sound.

In front of the block island ferry when it is on approach.

Get in front of the Martha’s Vineyard ferry.

Any of these boats will do for the test.

If you decide to press these boats, you’re going to be looked down upon.

The Staten Island ferry, someone is welcome to do that in the middle of the winter. Late in the fall. Anytime. It doesn’t have to be crowded harbor. You get in front of that boat, you don’t give way, you’re probably actually going to get stopped by harbor patrol Undergo a full homeland security investigation of your boat.

Are there actual special rules in any of these harbors? Or are you just making up fantasy rules?
Dealt with lots of ferries - BC, Evergreen state, some fast ferries, Bahamas blue boats - never had an issue.

[rslifkin]

I've always heard that the NY harbor ferries are known for being pushy (I grew up boating not far from there). I don't know off hand if there are any rules allowing it, but they certainly have the reputation.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We started watching the ship at about 5 miles distance from us.
.....
Our boat speeds were roughly equal - 9.5kn for the ship and 9kn for us.
'''''
At about 0.5nm separation, with no evident change of course or speed by the RORO, I called them on VHF 16 using their name (from AIS)

We hardened up about 30 degrees and crossed their wake about 100 metres astern of them, then bore off back to our original course. Had we kept our original course and speed we would have hit them.

1) With both vessels travelling at 9kts, @ .5nm of separation there was nothing the RORO could have done.

2) Neither the OP nor us knows whether there was another vessel on the other side of the RORO

3) Waiting until 1/2nm to make contact was ridiculously late.

To me, the only option was for the sailboat to pass astern. It sounds like the sailboat basically offered as much and the RORO agreed. Otherwise we need to explain how the RORO could have taken action at 9kts with 1/2nm to collision? Turning to STB, Turning to Port, or slowing would not have changed the pending outcome.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Montanan

When is too close, too close?



Do any of these look too close?



I particularly like the one where they are trying to pass under the anchor rode.

Yeah that trimaran is sailing awfully close to sailboard it may or may not be overtaking.

In the photo with the red ship, Argent Iris, they aren’t close enough, that was a rescue situation.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Earlier, two other ships, one a similar RORO and the other a larger container ship, going in the same direction (towards Auckland harbour limits from the north, still 10 miles distant to the harbour limit) had previously altered their respective courses 10-15 degrees to port to go astern of us. Both did so at about 3 and 5 miles distance from us respectively.

This is what I would typically expect.

You didn't answer my previous question about whether or not you took compass bearings of the RORO?

No one has mentioned it yet, but the Rules don't tell you to call on VHF - they say to sound 5 short blasts. Of course if you're using an air-can horn and they're behind closed doors, it'll have zero effect. Thinking from a big-ship perspective, sound signals are effective at about 2 miles, so that would be where they would be made. Given AIS identification, and a good chance you'd be speaking the same language a VHF call at 2-3 miles would have been the preferable option. Maybe he judged the passing wrong, or maybe he saw the bearing decreasing and was comfortable with a close pass. Maybe he's just a knob - who knows?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

You're confusing the concepts of inshore, coastal, offshore with what's essentially defined in Colregs - if it's not confined by width, depth or proximity of navigational hazards, then it's open. Open water, open ocean.

No confusion at all..
He was sailing from an island to his marina.. Likely at an angle across the chart so across the path of any ships.. Towards the top of the chart is where I am assuming is where the previous two ships gave way, more water and space.. but the bay narrows from the top quite a bit and starts creating doubts in my mind.. enough to want more info before jumping to conclusions about right or wrong.
The RoRo was to starboard..

Sailing for Dummies.. copy n paste.
Your vessel: You’re on a crossing course with another vessel that could result in a collision if neither boat changes course or speed.

The other vessel’s on the right: It’s the privileged or stand-on vessel and you must let it pass in front of you.

The other vessel is on the left: You’re the privileged or stand-on vessel and you must pass in front of the other vessel.

Sorry, on phone and quickest source, dinna wanna download Colregs.
Now either this is correct or folks on here wanna stop recommending this book..

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you did not perceive "drama" approaching a collision point at 10 knots from 5 cables away, you seriously need to adjust your perception. If the ship has slightly altered towards you, and you had perceived that alteration even half a minute later, then you're dead -- you have no more ability to get out of the way.

...

Time and space is never in unlimited supply --- there will be other traffic, hazards, whatever. So you can't do all this 20 miles out. And time and space are related by speed, so the distance frames may be stretched or compressed with different speeds, and different relative speeds. But you should carry out your process in a way which gives you time and space to solve problems and to execute Plan B if the first thing you do doesn't work.

I'd like to emphasize these comments by Dockhead; it's critical to understand the appropriate timeframes for reaction. Sailors who think they have more time and space to work with than is actually available can get themselves into danger without realizing it.

[Nani Kai]

[QUOTE=fxykty;3338639]Force the issue???!!!??? ROTFLAPM

I simply waited to give the ship opportunity to do what it should to avoid collision. Note that 5 miles, if the ship was making its usual 20 knots, is not very far at all and certainly within risk of collision time. QUOTE)



I have been on both sides of this issue, as a cruiser and also as captain of a commercial vessel. The best resolution in my experience is for the non-commercial boat to hail the commercial vessel, the earlier the better, politely explain your concerns about the situation and then, here is the important point, ASK the commercial captain "what would you like me to do?". The options for the commercial vessel are often limited and by asking the question you are indicating your willingness to participate in a co-ordinated response that works for both vessels.

The captain of a 1200' Japanese vessel coming out of Beaufort NC responded to such a request from me one stormy night by altering his speed sufficiently to eliminate any risk of collision. Totally unexpected on my part and extremely courteous on his.

I can not tell you how refreshing it is to hear a recreational captain show respect rather than disdain to a professional captain. Try it.

[Clivevon]

[QUOTE=Nani Kai;3339958]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Force the issue???!!!??? ROTFLAPM

I simply waited to give the ship opportunity to do what it should to avoid collision. Note that 5 miles, if the ship was making its usual 20 knots, is not very far at all and certainly within risk of collision time. QUOTE)



I have been on both sides of this issue, as a cruiser and also as captain of a commercial vessel. The best resolution in my experience is for the non-commercial boat to hail the commercial vessel, the earlier the better, politely explain your concerns about the situation and then, here is the important point, ASK the commercial captain "what would you like me to do?". The options for the commercial vessel are often limited and by asking the question you are indicating your willingness to participate in a co-ordinated response that works for both vessels.

The captain of a 1200' Japanese vessel coming out of Beaufort NC responded to such a request from me one stormy night by altering his speed sufficiently to eliminate any risk of collision. Totally unexpected on my part and extremely courteous on his.

I can not tell you how refreshing it is to hear a recreational captain show respect rather than disdain to a professional captain. Try it.

Like it !!

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No confusion at all..

Sailing for Dummies.. copy n paste.
Your vessel: You’re on a crossing course with another vessel that could result in a collision if neither boat changes course or speed.

The other vessel’s on the right: It’s the privileged or stand-on vessel and you must let it pass in front of you.

The other vessel is on the left: You’re the privileged or stand-on vessel and you must pass in front of the other vessel.

Sorry, on phone and quickest source, dinna wanna download Colregs.
Now either this is correct or folks on here wanna stop recommending this book..

With respect, sadly I think that you are very confused.

This is a simple Power vs Sail situation. None of what you just pasted applies.

I'll requote a previous post of mine, which even includes a link to the COLREGS.

As a paid delivery skipper I'm surprised that you are not 300% conversant with the COLREGS - probably even storing a copy/app on your phone - instead of posting randomly from 'sailing for dummies' ?

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Which rule exactly?

Here is the link to the COLREGS that I posted earlier: https://assets.publishing.service.go...65/msn1781.pdf

Please also re-read the OP to understand the situation. It clearly describes all the necessary information:

...we were broad reaching under gennaker and full main (145 TWA on starboard)...

...we had a mid-sized RORO ship (180m long, roll on roll off car carrier) approaching from our windward (starboard) bow on a course that would cross ours at 90 degrees...

...We were outside of the harbour limits, there was no traffic separation scheme nor channel, and there was clear water all around with no obstructions within 3 miles...

In the first instance, this was a simple Power vs Sail situation - Rule 18.

So it is in fact your first sentence that is entirely moot (not 'mute').


This is NOT Rule 14 - Head On Situation:

(a)
When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other.

(b)
Such a situation shall be deemed to exist when a vessel sees the other ahead or nearly ahead and by night she would see the mast head lights of the other in a line or nearly in a line and or both sidelights and by day she observes the corresponding aspect of the other vessel.

(c)
When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether such a situation exists she shall assume that it does exist and act accordingly.


This is also NOT Rule 15 - Crossing Situation

When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel.


This IS VERY CLEARLY Rule 18 - Responsibilities Between Vessels

Except where Rules 9,10 and 13 otherwise require:

(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing;
(iv) a sailing vessel.


Other Rules may have come into effect as the situation developed but NONE of them are what you have suggested.

It's really clear that many cruisers are posting without properly reading or even understanding the first post from the OP describing the situation and are instead just making up their own assumptions.

It's also really clear that many cruisers don't have the faintest knowledge of the COLREGS, or if they do they are choosing to apply them incorrectly, or simply ignore them and make up their own rules instead.

This is craziness. Please learn and follow the COLREGS.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Or are you just making up fantasy rules?

Thanks Lodesman for continuing to reply here and try refute all the nonesense being posted.

I think I'll try to refrain from posting further since it appears that there are way too many cruisers here who just prefer to make up their own rules instead of following the internationally recognised COLREGS that have been in place for decades.

Too many cruisers here who 'think they know better'.

Frightening.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Where has it been stated it was 'open ocean'...

The OP stated there were no obstructions within 3 miles.. to me that does not represent 'open ocean' else why feel the need to mention this.

Open water, not open ocean. The crossing took place 5 miles to the NE of Tiritiri Matangi. We were still 5+ miles outside the Auckland Harbour limits. You can see our course adjustment if you zoom in.



I say again, I was not challenging the ship, nor trying to assert my imaginary right of way.

For those saying I should have altered course earlier, what about the earlier ships? Oh yeah, earlier than them. If so, I would have ended up at Kawau, the larger island to the north, and they, having manoeuvred correctly, would have seen me altering course right at them.



These weren’t ferries, nor were they in a shipping lane, nor were they moving at top speed. All three ships went on to anchor to wait for space at the port.

There are those saying WAY TOO CLOSE. I called on VHF, and altered course, when I judged it to be appropriate in the circumstances. There was no danger at any point of us hitting the ship or of them running us over.

The ship obviously thought so too, as they didn’t do anything but continue on their way.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Nani Kai

. .. I can not tell you how refreshing it is to hear a recreational captain show respect rather than disdain to a professional captain. Try it.

Is it uncommon?

Early in my sailing life I started listening carefully to VHF conversations between commercial mariners, and even now if I'm at the nav table and hear a conversation start up I habitually switch over to 06 or whatever to hear what they will say to each other.

I think the best thing for us to try to fit in with that and do it the way they do -- the way they treat each other, how they go about it. Pros talking to each other are with exceptionally rare deviations polite and collegial to each other, always willing to help each other out, always happy to maneuver if someone else needs it. The only interest they have is the common interest of making every crossing as totally risk-free, drama-free, as predictable, as possible. Never any hint of anyone asserting any kind of "rights", or "challenging" anyone -- it's not in their vocabulary, and shouldn't be in ours.

Note also that they don't waste each other's time -- they don't ask questions which are answered by the Rules, they don't make unecessary calls. Also something we should do, and knowing the Rules cold is the essential basis for this.

So for God's sake don't ever call a ship and ask him, in an outraged tone, why the hell he doesn't give way. This is a totally inappropriate question. Never ever do that -- that is total WAFI behavior. If you expect a ship to have given way and he doesn't, your question is totally different -- "Do you want to handle this, or shall I"? I don't really like the idea of asking him what he wants you to do -- you should have your own proposal ready -- "I'm going to alter to starboard to pass behind, you hold your course and speed, OK?" Or -- "Do you mind [even if he is obligated to anyway] altering to port to give me a little more room? Is it OK if I hold my course and speed?" If he has a different idea, he'll tell you.