Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by requiem

Are you sure it's actually BCPA and not just the course vector?

My first (and quite incorrect!) thought was that one could simply use the current aspect to determine this, which is somewhat workable for a CPA of 0, but Lodesman's question made me remember that both bearing and aspect will (quite obviously) continuously change for any ship on a passing course.

This would be particularly a problem for dangerously close CPAs, and it is at the CPA that the bearings are changing the fastest and the shorter the CPA the greater the impact of any measurement error on them. So, I think that makes the calculation not only complicated as Dockhead mentioned, but also more dangerous.

I do still like the idea of a "safety bubble" based on vessel size; it should have negligible impact for small boats but might deter risky passes.

Just going back to the BCPA variable. My understanding is that this is the bearing of the other vessel at the moment of closest approach. And my experience has kind of confirmed this. So yeap I like that variable, to confirm what I am thinking when observing another vessel on AIS, how the situation is likely to evolve. I only have AIS when it comes to electronics and do not have any other screens to simulate the future (seems from other posts that commercial vessels certainly have that kind of software capability and other pleasure vessels can also do this). But I confirm, I am also rather regimental about keeping a look out including under the genoa every 10 minutes or so and what I see physically must back up the AIS data.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I don’t question the truth in that few of the boats you deliver have radar but I do strongly disagree that anything close to only 10% of cruising boats have radar. I think it’s at least 75% and anyone can see that for themselves simply by looking out across a harbor or marina full of cruising sailboats. Hint: it’s much easier to count the ones without radar.

Yes, you’ve told us all before about how you like to cross busy traffic lanes and the English Channel on foggy moonless nights without radar and since you seem to bring it up a lot you seem to think it is something to be proud of when what it really means is that all the other vessels out there with radar have been forced to avoid you whether they are the stand on vessel or not, because you were blind so had no idea you were even involved in a potential crossing conflict. Everybody outa my way, I’m coming through! We’ve all known people like that.

Yes, you and DH have both survived, snd so has every other poster on this forum, unless Davey Jones locker has finally been equipped with WIFI.

I think you should check out the rules for crossing the lanes in the English Channel before you start having a 'Righteous' pop at me about no radar..
As for pride.. not really, it's no big deal though some may like to make it one.. more boats have made that trip every year without radar than with in the past..
Post Brexit its yet to be seen if those numbers of either type continue.
Maybe a more accurate way to score the % of with and without would be looking at boats for sale on say Apollo Duck.. radar is a scarcity below a certain size, say 40ft.. it's a luxury item for many.

[boatman61]

Furthermore.. I am not stupid enough to set out on a Channel crossing on a foggy night.. since my first crossing in 1985 I have hit fog banks mid channel maybe 5 times over the years, it's largely unforseen and like many small boat owners I plan my sailing for favorable conditions.. we don't all go out in rising weather or if it's foggy.
If you think I'm going to spend scarce boat$$$`s as you put it for a bare handful of occasions your nutz.. I just follow the rules and rely on others to do the same..
What's that mantra you lot keep pushing.. Use Common Sense..

[HeinSdL]

On the topic of crossing the English Channel, when younger did that trip many times. On one occasion back in the late 80's ended up in horrendous weather on a Contessa 32, at one point running under bare poles back to Devon from Brittany. The weather was much worse than the shipping forecast predicted so it was very much a case of just carry on. We didn't see a ship all night (whereas usually yes it was a bit of a hassle with the shipping lanes and all that, taking bearings for half the trip) so it was all a bit of a lucky punt. Perhaps the occasional commercial vessel gave way if they actually observed this struggling little 32 footer...

But reading threads like this now it feels that going to sea without the latest screens and software and aids and what have you would make you a mad man. Or woman.

We were fine before GPS and electronics, and now we're even more fine with devices such as AIS. Notwithstanding the occasional risky situation which actually helps to make the whole experience at sea just more worthwhile. In any case more interesting and certainly wouldn't get too worked up about it.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Furthermore.. I am not stupid enough to set out on a Channel crossing on a foggy night.. since my first crossing in 1985 I have hit fog banks mid channel maybe 5 times over the years, it's largely unforseen and like many small boat owners I plan my sailing for favorable conditions.. we don't all go out in rising weather or if it's foggy.
If you think I'm going to spend scarce boat$$$`s as you put it for a bare handful of occasions your nutz.. I just follow the rules and rely on others to do the same..
What's that mantra you lot keep pushing.. Use Common Sense..

Here here!

Exactly

[Pelagic]

I remember a thread asking which was better, AIS or Radar?

So many extolled the virtues of AIS and some even opined that Radar was now obsolete.

I come from a time of crossing oceans without GPS so I understand Boaties confidence in that you make do with what you have.

But , I liken the lack of Radar at night, to swimming underwater without a mask.

Nobody is saying you must have Radar or AIS, but Radar is by far the most useful tool next to depth sounder and compass if they navigate in 3rd world countries at night

[rslifkin]

In general, I'd say a good radar is more useful than AIS. But both together is great. AIS can often tell you what a given radar target is. And if you're heading inland, AIS can see far better around river bends, etc. as it'll see over / through land that radar can't see past.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I remember a thread asking which was better, AIS or Radar?

So many extolled the virtues of AIS and some even opined that Radar was now obsolete.

I come from a time of crossing oceans without GPS so I understand Boaties confidence in that you make do with what you have.

But , I liken the lack of Radar at night, to swimming underwater without a mask.

Nobody is saying you must have Radar or AIS, but Radar is by far the most useful tool next to depth sounder and compass if they navigate in 3rd world countries at night

Not trying to be arguementive here Pelagic... Honest..
I don't freedive/swim underwater with a mask, I find them uncomfortable and they leak which ends up with an annoying washing round inside the mask... furthermore as one goes deeper the pressure increases discomfort.
Back in the day when I was a competitive swimmer I did not use goggles though most others did.. same reasons.
Just avoid swimming in water where the sea kicks up sand.
There's no 'one size fits all' though some may wish the imposition.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I remember a thread asking which was better, AIS or Radar?

So many extolled the virtues of AIS and some even opined that Radar was now obsolete.

I come from a time of crossing oceans without GPS so I understand Boaties confidence in that you make do with what you have.

But , I liken the lack of Radar at night, to swimming underwater without a mask.

Nobody is saying you must have Radar or AIS, but Radar is by far the most useful tool next to depth sounder and compass if they navigate in 3rd world countries at night

Totally agree. Maybe I'm showing my old-fartness too, but I can take or leave a chart plotter, love AIS but it's not a necessity. Losing GPS wouldn't bother me -- I can still do a three point fix. But if you want to take away my radar, you'll have to pry it out of my cold, dead fingers. Yep, radar, compass, depth sounder. Those are the necessities, for me.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Furthermore.. I am not stupid enough to set out on a Channel crossing on a foggy night.. since my first crossing in 1985 I have hit fog banks mid channel maybe 5 times over the years, it's largely unforseen and like many small boat owners I plan my sailing for favorable conditions.. we don't all go out in rising weather or if it's foggy.
If you think I'm going to spend scarce boat$$$`s as you put it for a bare handful of occasions your nutz.. I just follow the rules and rely on others to do the same..
What's that mantra you lot keep pushing.. Use Common Sense..

Just a few posts ago you claimed you were stupid enough to have made “quite a few crossings on foggy, moonless nights” without radar but now you claim it’s 5 times over the past 30+ years and it started out clear. Hard to discuss this when your story keeps changing.

You say you follow the rules and rely on others to do the same and at first glance that sounds fair, but if you’re without radar in the fog what that really means you’re essentially blind and are relying on the part of the rules that require the stand on vessel to give way when it becomes apparent that the give way vessel hasn’t given way. Since most other vessels have radar and it’s a big ocean it’s worked so far but if you’re in the thick fog and run into someone else out there with the same anti radar philosophy as yourself, even if you’re both “following the rules” if one of you has a bit of trouble hearing fog signals over the sound of your engines, you’re likely to have a collision that could easily have been avoided if one of you had radar. If it were true that you’ve only been caught out in the fog 5 times in 35 years I could understand your judgment that it’s not worth the $$, but if you’ve really done all the sailing you claim to have done (and I trust you have) I strongly suspect that it’s more like the “several times” you claimed just a few pages back, and if that’s true, “common sense” dictates that you get a small radar set so you don’t have to rely on everybody else to see you on their radar and avoid you as you’ve been doing, within the rules of course. [emoji6]
Whether or not to have radar aboard is a question of priorities but prices on a basic radar are now low enough so you can buy one for less than the cost of a single sail, and much less than it costs to have your boat painted. With all your boating contacts you’ve built up over the years, I’m sure you could get a used one for next to nothing if you tried. Boatyards are constantly installing new ones and the older ones are either thrown away or put on boatyard workers private boats. I recently had an old 48 mile Simrad radar and chart plotter that were working just fine when I took them off the boat and if I could have found someone locally who wanted them I’d give them away for free, but the cost to pack up and ship them is more than they are worth and I couldn’t find anyone locally who wanted them so gave them to the tech who was installing in case he could use the parts. So, I don’t think your failure to have radar when you’re out in the fog is driven primarily by a scarcity of money, but rather a choice that you’ve made that IMHO is counter to having much “common sense.”

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Totally agree. Maybe I'm showing my old-fartness too, but I can take or leave a chart plotter, love AIS but it's not a necessity. Losing GPS wouldn't bother me -- I can still do a three point fix. But if you want to take away my radar, you'll have to pry it out of my cold, dead fingers. Yep, radar, compass, depth sounder. Those are the necessities, for me.

Yes...... but for some
They cannot comprehend or understand, for their eyes are blind and cannot see; their minds do not discern.
[emoji56]

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Just a few posts ago you claimed you were stupid enough to have made “quite a few crossings on foggy, moonless nights” without radar but now you claim it’s 5 times over the past 30+ years and it started out clear. Hard to discuss this when your story keeps changing.

You say you follow the rules and rely on others to do the same and at first glance that sounds fair, but if you’re without radar in the fog what that really means you’re essentially blind and are relying on the part of the rules that require the stand on vessel to give way when it becomes apparent that the give way vessel hasn’t given way. Since most other vessels have radar and it’s a big ocean it’s worked so far but if you’re in the thick fog and run into someone else out there with the same anti radar philosophy as yourself, even if you’re both “following the rules” if one of you has a bit of trouble hearing fog signals over the sound of your engines, you’re likely to have a collision that could easily have been avoided if one of you had radar. If it were true that you’ve only been caught out in the fog 5 times in 35 years I could understand your judgment that it’s not worth the $$, but if you’ve really done all the sailing you claim to have done (and I trust you have) I strongly suspect that it’s more like the “several times” you claimed just a few pages back, and if that’s true, “common sense” dictates that you get a small radar set so you don’t have to rely on everybody else to see you on their radar and avoid you as you’ve been doing, within the rules of course. [emoji6]
Whether or not to have radar aboard is a question of priorities but prices on a basic radar are now low enough so you can buy one for less than the cost of a single sail, and much less than it costs to have your boat painted. With all your boating contacts you’ve built up over the years, I’m sure you could get a used one for next to nothing if you tried. Boatyards are constantly installing new ones and the older ones are either thrown away or put on boatyard workers private boats. I recently had an old 48 mile Simrad radar and chart plotter that were working just fine when I took them off the boat and if I could have found someone locally who wanted them I’d give them away for free, but the cost to pack up and ship them is more than they are worth and I couldn’t find anyone locally who wanted them so gave them to the tech who was installing in case he could use the parts. So, I don’t think your failure to have radar when you’re out in the fog is driven primarily by a scarcity of money, but rather a choice that you’ve made that IMHO is counter to having much “common sense.”

I have never claimed I was stupid enough to make crossings on foggy moonless nights..
I have recounted tales of when I have been caught out by fog in Channel crossings but it's a very rare occurrence.. as for moonless nights, you'd be surprised how much light is given by stars once you get away from light pollution and how good visibility can be when your night vision is not constantly wrecked by looking at chartplotter/radar etc screen's.
But hey.. you choose what you want to interpret and I will continue as someone said..
So blind I cannot see.. nor my mind discern..
Just follow the Colregs and we'll both be safe.. altering course to avoid other boats is recommended.. with or without me or you having radar..

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I have never claimed I was stupid enough to make crossings on foggy moonless nights..
I have recounted tales of when I have been caught out by fog in Channel crossings but it's a very rare occurrence.. as for moonless nights, you'd be surprised how much light is given by stars once you get away from light pollution and how good visibility can be when your night vision is not constantly wrecked by looking at chartplotter/radar etc screen's.
But hey.. you choose what you want to interpret and I will continue as someone said..
So blind I cannot see.. nor my mind discern..
Just follow the Colregs and we'll both be safe.. altering course to avoid other boats is recommended.. with or without me or you having radar.. [emoji3]

Lol Boatie, you are a stubborn bugger. [emoji1]
Of course you can avoid what you can see, ...
...its what you cannot see that Isaiah was talking about

[Uricanejack]

After 34 pages Radar has become the issue.
Oh well.
I do have a radar. Pretty basic, got a free sailboat with it when I bought the slightly used radar.

It’s nice to have, I am pleased to have it but find I don’t actually use it. Inconvenient location at the chart table has a lot to do with this.

There are lots of regulations and requirements for commercial vessels and vessels over a certain size which require Radar.
The collision regulations do not.
The collision regulations set out additional requirements or considerations for vessels fired with radar but do not require radar.

It’s been a while since I sailed across La Manche from England to France and back again.

When in sight of other vessels rules 12 to 18 apply so I used my eyes and where applicable a compass.

When the visibility reduced. Still sailing, I used my ears.
When vessels are not in sight of one and other rules 12 to 18 do not apply.
Rule 19 applies.
Rule 19 there are no stand on vessels
Without radar.
When you hear a fog signal.
You stop change, your signal to 2 prolong
If the vessel comes into sight rule 12 to 18 apply act accordingly.
If not listen. If it’s signal changes to 2 prolonged it has stopped.
You can proceed slowly sounding your regular signal under way making way.
He will do the same.
Continue stop and go until sighted or you can no longer hear.

If the other vessel continues to sound for making way.
It is probably fitted with radar. By having stopped. This should be readily apparent to a radar observer,
The other vessels will be able to avoid you quite easily when you no longer hear the signal or it sound like it is getting further away,
You can get back to making way again and sounding the appropriate whistle.

Better yet don’t head out in fog, unfortunately this is sometimes easier said than done.
Some locations are very susceptible to fog,

If you have a radar the above is still a good procedure.
Particularly if you have a radar like mine which is head up only and instabalised .

Finally avoid altering to port for a vessel forward of your beam unless you are absolutely certain you are overtaking.

I can’t count the number of times a small vessel has altered to port when I was passing clear.
This is highly dangerous to the small vessel.

I don’t know why they do it, kind of like moths to a light.
I think they often get confused by radar. Along with scared by whistles.

If you get confused stop. Don’t go to port.
When you are stopped the radar will still be real-time heads up but when you are stopped relative and true are the same.
You will then probably see the target you are worried about is passing clear.
Or in the unlikely event it’s heading for you turn hard to starboard and head away.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Lol Boatie, you are a stubborn bugger. [emoji1]
Of course you can avoid what you can see, ...
...its what you cannot see that Isaiah was talking about

But I assume they can see me..
So.. What's the problem..

Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
Isaiah..