Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by MVNightWatch

“You chose to force the issue. Now you chose to grandstand about how you were wronged. While you do that, we roll our eyes.“



My friend states the truth a little harsher than I would have put it. But it is still the truth. At 5 miles away you could have solved a problem that never would’ve existed but for your continued course. There can be no ego at sea. I can honestly say that “I am the stand on vessel“ would never have occurred to me. The thought in my mind when seeing 0.0 clearance would have been “which way do I turn to get away from this problem?”



The NightWatch’s hull speed is 5 1/2 kn. I don’t ever try to win any battles. I think like the rabbit, not the wolf.



The captains job is to bring the boat safely to port, so the crew can easily step off with the line in their hand. And an enjoyable time will be had by all.

Of course your last sentence is true but the OP didn’t try to win any battles as you imply. Instead, he simply realized the crossing geometry dictated that his was the stand on vessel so he maintained course to allow the give way vessel a chance to act, which is exactly what the Colregs require that he do. Then, when he contacted the other vessel in an attempt to gain clarity as to its intentions, and it became clear the other vessel didn’t intend to give way, without any protest he gave way before his vessel was in imminent danger of collision. He basically did everything right and if I had to point to one thing he could have improved upon, I think he should have called the ship sooner to give them a bit more time to sort things out properly. But I’ve also been there when you keep expecting the other guy to do the right thing and thinking he’s going to any second now, and suddenly you realize you’re closer than you realized so I’m reluctant to even criticize him for apparently falling into that trap.

[dirk_modica]

In my humble opinion, from a theoretical point of view, you may ne right to be incensed that a cargo ship didn't followed rules and did not took evasive maneuver..

However, considering that:

1) should something go wrong, you may risk to have a collision with say 8-15,000 tons of steel and cargo travelling at 13 knots; and that a container vsl can go at 18 knots and a fast ferry at 25 knots, thus leaving you very short time to react in case of emergency;

2) that the crews of cargo ships are humans and that in my experience you find in any social group the usual percentage of stupids amid a majority of intelligent and trained professionals, and that there is therefore a slight chance that the watch on the ship may have switched off alarms and be sleeping or doing something else ....

I personally prefer not to take any risks and when I sail offshore in the med on my AIS I put an alarm for any vsl getting closer that 3 miles: and I ALWAYS take action in case of ships on approaching courses as I NEVER pretend that they may have seen me.

I therefore would not rely on being backed by regulations, and i think that you did well to maneuver as it is anyway duty of the skipper to try to minimize any possible risk.

ciao
Dirk Modica
Genoa, Italy

[pendragon]

You caused a storm in a tea cup mate, Just change course a little-->Give way to Goliath, irrespective if you are right or not

[CaptBobR]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Commercial ships have right of way in practice. I just adjust a bit to pass astern usually.

They often don’t even look at the “little boat AIS” when entering harbor areas. It’s just a crowded mess for them.

Source? My friend, a mate on ships like this.

Commercial ships DO NOT have the right of way at sea. However the Law of Gross Tonnage will dictate you maneuver out of their way. Then take what action you deem appropriate.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

But I’ve also been there when you keep expecting the other guy to do the right thing and thinking he’s going to any second now, and suddenly you realize you’re closer than you realized so I’m reluctant to even criticize him for apparently falling into that trap.

It's still worth mentioning as a problem. In collision reports "waited too long" seems to show up rather often. I can think of unrelated areas that have a similar problem: trading in financial markets, and backcountry skiing. In all three cases heuristic traps can lead people to closer to danger than they might prefer.

For avalanche awareness various "red light, green light" checklists have been designed to take emotion out of the picture. For trading, a common rule is to pre-determine your exit points for each trade before you execute it, so that you don't end up riding a losing position all the way down.

For collision avoidance, having a similar mental guide (e.g. "I'll take my own action at T-5 minutes") may be a simple way to ensure you don't wait until it's too late.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by MVNightWatch

At 5 miles away you could have solved a problem that never would’ve existed but for your if you continued your course.

FIFY
If you go back and look at the map bits and commentary about it, you'll see that the OP gybed onto the collision course when he was less than 5 miles from the RoRo. He didn't stand on as required; he created the problem; the WK on the RoRo let him uncreate the situation he put them in.

There can be no ego at sea. I can honestly say that “I am the stand on vessel“ would never have occurred to me.

You'll have to point out to us, where ego is discussed in the Colregs? Standing-on is a requirement of the rules; it's a duty. It has absolutely nothing to do with ego.

[Znightflyer]

The OP appears to have been in the right and took appropriate maneuvers to avoid a collision. Good job Captain.

Though from a legal point this may not matter but what size sailing vessel was your ship?

[Todd727]

Originally Posted by Be Free

Spoiler spoiler: right-on-red has been legal in all 50 states since 1980.

Careful: The few exceptions include New York City,[5] where right turns on red are prohibited, unless a sign indicates otherwise.

[crazyhorse]

Originally Posted by MikeHoncho

The rule of tonnage always applies

Having been in this situation on BOTH vessels (types), you have to be nuts to think a small sail boat has ANY RIGHT to expect a large ship underway to even alter course. The Officer on watch might not even know you are there but probably does and would expect a small MANEUVERABLE vessel to keep well away. A single screw ship takes MILES to change course in any substantial way let alone take off her way. We often meet tankers, huge buggars with a dangerous goods flag flying, heading up the river and ask them on CH11 (harbour control here) where they would like us. Often they will say pass to starboard. The pilot appreciates it because they atleased know we have seen them and we are not stupid enough to insist on passing port to port. Got many waves from the bridge. Ships..... simply keep away from them.

[garyfrankovich]

ALWAYS keep in in mind the most important rule when dealing with commercial vessels, the TONNAGE RULE!!

[requiem]

Originally Posted by crazyhorse

A single screw ship takes MILES to change course in any substantial way let alone take off her way. We often meet tankers, huge buggars with a dangerous goods flag flying, heading up the river

Don't rivers usually have bends?

[fxykty]

Could someone please post an official reference that defines the “tonnage rule”?

Also, could someone please post an official reference to the COLREGS that includes the phrase “right of way”?

By “official”, I mean national or international government or delegated authority publication of or related to the International Rules for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea.

Do not include any references to the Racing Rules of Sailing (which do contain the concept of “right of way”), nor any references to simplified rules or interpretations of rules.

[crazyhorse]

Originally Posted by requiem

Don't rivers usually have bends?

Yes (?)

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by crazyhorse

Yes (?)

That pretty much negates your point about a ship needing miles to change course.

[jmh2002]

Yeah, again, we are not talking about a VLCC that needs 5nm to stop.

Most commercial ships can in fact change course perfectly acceptably in open water.