Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[migaguiar]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Commercial ships have right of way in practice. I just adjust a bit to pass astern usually.

They often don’t even look at the “little boat AIS” when entering harbor areas. It’s just a crowded mess for them.

Source? My friend, a mate on ships like this.

Commercial Motor Ships have right of way?! Where in the world?
With this thinking that's why accidents happen Roro Captain should be reported

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Walkabout4242

Right of way in reality.... is.
Give way to the bigger ship
Common sense.
Irreverent what the rules say.

We should have a contest in every COLREGS thread to see who can guess how many times someone will post an assertion that the "right of tonnage" is a thing. There could be prizes.

[GoinSumWare]

Last spring we went dead in the water off Long Island in the Bahamas at 3 AM due to a clogged Racor, making us unable to maneuver and way up the COLREGS pecking order. This came as a surprise because the filter only had 24 hours on it but we had apparently taken on some dirty diesel or perhaps it was just the contents of the tank getting stirred up during refueling. In any event as I was down below replacing the filter an 800 foot tanker appeared on AIS and radar headed straight for us at 18 knots. Even a near miss would have been a disaster due to the wake. We immediately got on VHF and hailed her to advise of our situation. The captain asked for us to turn on all exterior lights, which we did, and then was considerate enough to give us a wide berth - the point being it all depends on who is at the helm.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Sailor_Jeff

I may not have understood. And I am in experienced. But I think out there ship approaching from the starboard had right of way for several reasons.

One, it's tonnage meant it was less maneuverable, therefore has right if way..

This is a common misconception because it is taught in many entry-level boating classes. It is an oversimplification of the actual rules.

Two, it was coming from the right, it has the right if way.

Not in this situation. Power-driven vessels are obligated to stay out of the way of sailboats when meeting or crossing. There are narrow exceptions that don't apply here (some types of commercial fishing involving long lines or nets, downbound vessels with a following current in the Western Rivers, vessels only able to navigate in a narrow channel or fairway, vessels at anchor, etc.)

Three, you saw it first. A captain is suppose to avoid collisions at all costs, so, the small craft should give way for safety.

While this is true it doesn't apply early in the crossing. Early in the crossing, the sailboat is obligated to hold its course, and the power boat is obligated to stay out of its way.

[GoinSumWare]

Originally Posted by Jammer

We should have a contest in every COLREGS thread to see who can guess how many times someone will post an assertion that the "right of tonnage" is a thing. There could be prizes.

It's not a thing, but then again it is a thing, because what people do is often not what they are supposed to do. I keep this in mind when riding my motorcycle on the highway and encountering a Semi... or for that matter a car. They are supposed to look and signal, and often don't. My point is you may be in the right technically and legally, but you will be dead all the same.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by smokey73

Respectfully consider the following from the perspective of the large vessel (when I say large vessel I mean a commercial ship like a tanker, RORO, etc, not a large pleasure boat):

1. You are on a sailboat, sailing. Therefore your speed and thus the closing situation is highly dependent on the wind, possibly current and your ability to hold a course if steering manually. The large vessel doesn't know any of this and frankly you don't know what is going to change in that equation in the next half hour let alone the next few minutes.

I don't know where you sail, that the wind changes drastically over a few minutes. Commercial guys are usually aware of the weather conditions, and light and fluky winds, you'll be making fairly slow speed. Current should not normally be an issue in open waters - surface currents will affect both vessels equally.

2. Suppose the large vessel changes course to fall behind you and the wind subsides and you slow down or conversely he slows down and you slow down too, through no fault of your own. As you can see, the large vessel will be "chasing" the course/speed to avoid you.

If he alters his heading astern of you, even if you come to a complete stop, his heading will still be astern of you. Unless you start travelling backwards it doesn't change his plan.

3. Should you choose to alter a few degrees at a distance of 5 miles to avoid the collision, the large vessel should notice that on the AIS a long way off, if they are paying attention. If you choose to hold course till you get closer then alter a fairly large amount to make your intentions know and then come back enough to pass safely behind the large vessel he will know you intentions by your actions and you can communicate to let him know on VHF to be sure.

I've discussed this here and in many previous threads. A few degree alteration by you 5 miles away does virtually NOTHING. It doesn't change the CPA by a safe amount; and it doesn't help the commercial WK - (s)he won't see your alteration and will still have to take action of some sort. We've discussed AIS too - commercial guys use it to alert the presence of another vessel - they don't use it to do the anti-collision planning. They certainly will not notice that your course has changed a couple degrees.

4. Would you really be foolish enough to cross the path of a large vessel who is at high speed just to press the issue of who is the stand on vessel (no such thing as right of way in COLREGS). My impression is that his steel trumps your fiberglass.

I'll truly glad you recognize there's no ROW in colregs. If crossing the path of a vessel at a safe distance, what's the issue? Why would you cock that up and confuse the situation, when you'll be safely past and out of his way?
If the crossing won't be at a safe distance, the colregs require you to take the necessary action to avoid a collision.

Good seamanship and prudence dictate taking early and definitive action to avoid collision based on an understanding of the situation, the variables involved (wind and much more variable speed on a boat that depends on wind for speed) and simply good judgement.

Your call of course but try to put yourself in their position for a moment.

You can also put yourself in their position or rather read about it: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-246374.html

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by GoinSumWare

Last spring we went dead in the water off Long Island in the Bahamas at 3 AM due to a clogged Racor, making us unable to maneuver and way up the COLREGS pecking order.

Did you use NUC lights and change your AIS status?

[Halien]

This discussion has gone on for twenty five pages!

Here's my take, derived from forty years sailing Puget Sound. If these points have already been made, excuse me. Twenty five pages is too much to wade through.

1. Know the COLREGs and follow them. Every decision you make should start here. By know them, I mean know them for real, as opposed to just having a quick reference you need to consult.

2. Know your chart and understand traffic separation schemes. In the Salish Sea I know the regular traffic patterns of container ships, cruise ships, ROROs, bulk carriers, ferries, tugs, fishing vessels, tug and barge combos, ATBs, gas ships, tankers, USCG vessels, USN vessels, nuclear sub groups, and more. It's not hard. Most of it can be deduced from resources, like charts and guides, that should be on your boat anyway.

3. Try to keep clear when at all possible. By that I mean that it's almost always easy to avoid crossing situations between an ten ton sailboat and an 80,000 ton container ship.

4. If you can't avoid a crossing, and you're the stand-on vessel, call the bridge and tell them you intend to alter course and cross behind them. They usually monitor VTS, BTB, and 16. If you have AIS on your DSC VHF you can call the bridge directly. I have two fixed VHFs and a handheld, and I monitor all of them on busy traffic days. I've spent time on a container ship; the bridge's view angle makes it difficult for the pilot to see what's going on immediately before the bow. In my experience pilots generally appreciate a quick VHF call. Also, don't cross behind a tug towing a barge. Just stay the hell away to start with.

5. When you can't avoid a crossing, and the other vessel doesn't answer the bridge, show some side so they know exactly what you plan to do.

Finally, always use your senses, all the time. USN, USCG, and Canadian CG vessels often turn AIS to silent mode. Once you turn left at Tatoosh Island, much of the fishing and crabbing fleet does too. Alarms, radar, and instruments are fine, but your first line of defense should be your eyes and ears. And look behind you. Commercial traffic is surprisingly quiet.

That's it. Question it all you want, but I've never had a problem with commercial traffic in our very active area.

I do have problems with other recreational boaters, though. All. The. Time. A disappointingly large fraction of pleasure boaters never get to rules one, two and three. Regarding four, you just would not believe how many people don't even monitor VHF sixteen. I don't remember who taught me rule five, but for forty years it has served me well when approaching pleasure craft skippers who clearly don't know the rules.

I frequently see skippers who get themselves into crossing situations with the big boats, are the stand-on vessel, and just cross in front. In Puget Sound you'll get a short blast if the ship doesn't like what you're doing, and then five more if they really, really don't like it. These situations usually don't involve a VHF call, which I know because I monitor those channels. If you're one of those skippers you're a douche.

Rant over . . .

[sv_pelagia]

"Canadian CG vessels often turn AIS to silent mode."

Never experienced this...

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Did you use NUC lights and change your AIS status?

No status to change on class B AIS.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Uricanekack....
All that sounds like log towing lingo on the BC coast.

Very relaxed bunch of guys, but usually missing a few tips of their fingers[emoji16]

Yeah - but if towing a boom they're only doing a knot or two and easy to avoid. Even if they are the give-away vessel there's not much they can do about it. Avoid them. I once met a BIG tug towing a BIG boom in the middle of Tugboat Pass at Gillard Island in the middle of the Yuculta Rapids. He had two smaller tugs further back on the boom helping to steer. There's no question about what to do in that situation. I just turned around and went by Devil's Hole - which, if taken at the wrong stage of the tide, has the largest whirlpool in the world!

But yes, those guys are great on the radio. I suppose it's a welcome distraction while standing at the wheel for twelve hours doing 1 - 2 knots.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Perhaps I am mistaken, (it does happen ) but I thought that the regs required a vessel to avoid a collision if it became apparent that the give way vessel was not in fact meeting their obligations. Looking forward to being educated.

And, OP did exactly that! A classic example of well-applied COLREGS. It is well worth noting that this was offshore, in open and uncongested waters, where the courtesy we give to merchants when inshore is not necessary.
* He observed the Give Way vessel, and watched it.
* He contacted the Give Way vessel to ascertain intentions (although he perhaps could have been more firm).
* He continued to monitor the Give Way vessel.
* He complied with his OBLIGATIONS under COLREGS to maintain course and speed (although, part of why a sailing vessel is Stand On is because it is difficult/impossible to completely maintain course and speed -- what if the wind dies or shifts?)
* When it became clear that the Give Way vessel was ignoring his OBLIGATIONS (and well before extremis), the OP hardened up 30 degrees and passed astern, an easy and prudent response. No drama, no imminent risk of collision, no broken boats or scratched paint, nothing. And I'll wager that OP had already planned out how he would avoid collision in the event that the commercial vessel ignored COLREGS, so it wasn't even an unseamanlike maneuver.

[toda]

Originally Posted by BillKny

All those concerns can be completely cured by a short and sweet radio call while everything is still 30 minutes away to make passing arrangements if you have any fear about something developing in an unexpected way. The idea that I should hold my course while a steady 0.0 CPA continues on and on is just anathema to me.

It's pretty routine for us to hail a larger vessel and confirm a port-to-port passing, or a starboard-to-starboard if that make more sense. It has always been well and politely received.

Waiting until you are minutes away from disaster (at least in your eyes) to do anything, or worse to suddenly insist that somebody else do something, is either arrogant, stupid, or both.

Perhaps the greatest benefit of AIS is the fact that it improves our ability to maintain situational awareness long before we are in the midst of a situation. Using that greater awareness to our advantage is best accomplished with clear and early communication. A short radio call from 5 miles out ends all uncertainty and reduces anxiety for all involved... There's not much use in having all those tools if one chooses not to use all of them when the time is ripe. I have a hard time imagining a situation where the time could have been riper!

As for the "rule of gross tonnage"... it may not be in the COLREGS, but there are a whole bunch of common sense survival rules ("don't inhale when your mouth and nose are underwater", for example) which are also not in the COLREGS. My version of the COLREGS, says to do what I need to; both to avoid collision and to make the other guy's day as gentle as I can... And when it seems as though there might be uncertainty, I do what I can to clear that up for both of us as soon as possible. Having sailed commercially and recreationally, I've yet to talk to another captain with the intent of making clarity out of mud without being met by gratitude and respect.

I would add that those who have posted here with expressions of negative judgment towards the author of the original post. The fellow had the courage to raise the question, presenting his actions and rationale openly, yet with an apparent curiosity to see other ways of looking at his own thoughts an actions. Choosing to reply with disdain seems neither useful nor kind. Those of you who feel inclined to make yourself feel better by demeaning others might do well to consider why it is you choose to behave that way. I applaud folks who have the courage to question their own thoughts/actions publicly. The gift you give us all is the opportunity to consider things we might not have from angles that never occurred to us. I am grateful for your willingness to stand up!

[jla123sail]

This has gone too far. How can one demonstrate such poor seamanship and lack of understanding of a commercial vessel to maneuver is just a demonstration of stupidity and arrogance. Call the ship well in advance and notify the ship that you are altering course to pass the ship well astern and that the ship maintain course and speed. Situation solved. What is your problem? Such actions give sailors a bad reputation. Leave her Johnny and stay on land.

[lituya1617]

COREGS have all the effect at sea that a butterfly in Arizona has. Know this: I have never been able to even get a large ship to respond to my radio hail, light signals, or even flares. I once bounced a flare off the pilothouse windows of a big freighter that nearly hit me off Little Corn Island and the ship did not respond in any way. These buggers seem to believe that running over a small sailing boat will not hurt them and leave no evidence to cause them trouble. Unfortunately, their belief is correct. I simply take whatever evasive maneuvers I can as early as I can when I cross paths with a huge steel ship. They have proven to my satisfaction that they just don't care. Now, if you are the stand on vessel and you maneuver to avoid collision without contacting the other vessel, you may be at fault in the collision. If you maintain course as the regs say you should if you have the right of way, you risk being killed. My dad used to say, "You can be right, dead right and just as dead as if you were wrong." Everyone should obey the rules; unfortunately, nobody is enforcing the rules so they are scoffed at. It is dangerous out there, especially at night.