Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by requiem

Just a small observation, based on the screenshot provided, the course route leading up to the dogleg looks a bit curved. Using the extremely unscientific method of plopping down arrows in Google Slides and rotating them to match the course, I measure the legs as follows:

From the 42 m sounding to the 15 m sounding: 235°
From the 15 m sounding to the "U" in Hauraki: 225°
From the "U" to the course change: 210°

Using Boatman's estimate of 6 miles for the diversion (which is pretty close to what I measured on OpenCPN), the lengths of those legs are roughly 6, 6, and 3 miles. (Since I have NZ charts up now, it looks like there's a tidal stream of up to a knot that could be a factor.)

I too am rather concerned the RORO wouldn't detect a dangerous CPA, but I do wonder if an early measurement may have provided a different passing picture, and complacency led it to not notice a change. Even so, keeping a decent watch and allowing a safe passing distance should have avoided this.

This plus looking at the surrounding land mass was making me wonder if a collision occurred whether it would be more a case of which was the overtaking vessel than a straightforward 90* crossing situation when it got to court.. just half a story here.
JMH, Lodesman.. I have a very good personal reasons not to be confused by giveaway rules, I am also aware things can go wrong in spite of them.
There's too much leeway in the course for a 1knot tide to be a factor, looks more like bearing off to try and cross ahead and not succeeding.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

When did he say he stood on until the last second. Certainly not how I interpreted his version of events.
Also how do you come up with negotiation. There was no negotiation.
Or at least I didn’t interpret it as a negotiation.

Negotiation is not required and I wouldn’t recommend negotiation.

At a half mile, the ship had no option but continue on based on the OPs choice to assert his stand on status. We don't know what other conditions the ship was under such that it may or may not have been able to take earlier action.

Yes, the colregs to require you to negotiate how the crossing will happen if it's unclear what is happening.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I get that making a smaller correction early on yields a greater amount of clearance per degree turned than a late correction would yield, but several posters have mentioned making a 5 degree heading change very early on to avoid the whole situation. That's a great theoretical thing to do and might even work while motoring on autopilot in calm conditions, but usually not so useful while sailing in actual practice and the reason is that early on, you don't really know within 5 degrees what the actual collision course is because you don't know within 5 degrees what YOUR actual course is. You know what course you're trying to hold and have a readout that tells you what your course is at that moment but if you look at your course vector for 30 seconds or so, it's usually bouncing around more than 5 degrees, or at least mine is, especially when I'm sailing in any kind of seas. So that means if I only make a 5 degree adjustment to my course, I about as likely to be putting myself on a collision course rather than moving slightly away from one. So, if I deem that a course correction is necessary because I seem to be on, or close to a collision course with someone, I'd always make a larger correction than the amount my course is varying to ensure clearance. Another reason for doing this is to make it obvious to the other vessel that I've made a course correction so as to leave no doubt regarding my intentions for the crossing.

If 5 isn't enough make it 10 or 15...still makes almost no difference to the pleasure boats time to reach it's destination.

Honestly, I would probably turn 30-45 degrees, so it's clear to the ship that my course is not just wandering. Hold that until I would be clearly behind the ship if I resumed my original heading and then turn back to my original heading such that it is well behind the ship and there is no doubt.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't give a flip if the give way vessel doesn't want to give way. Why should I? As long as I know that he will be holding course and speed, I am very happy to take matters into my own hands.

True enough in open water with little traffic.


But in many situations I do care whether the give vessel gives way. Examples have included:


- With commercial vessels the most common frustration is when I can't figure out what they're doing because they aren't holding a steady course. Lake Pepin is curved, and barges follow the curve or cut it short depending on who's in charge. Sometimes they answer the radio, sometimes not. Similarly if there's a tug trying to hook onto a tow and I can't figure out which one he's going for I can't stay out of the way


- Situations where I have selected lay lines to clear a point or obstacle, and have guests aboard, and end up short tacking to stay clear of a vessel that is disregarding the inland rules (to the discomfort of my guests)



- Light airs where my ability to maneuver out of the way of a faster vessel is doubtful or nonexistent.


- Where I am exiting a harbor in wind and current and have few good options for staying clear of shallow draft vessels trolling across the harbor entrance



Perhaps the greatest frustration is recreational fishing vessels trolling with lines out in areas with congestion and obstacles.


I do cultivate an attitude of detachment but in many cases there are consequences far beyond turning the wheel a little bit to accommodate another vessel. In some cases there are safety implications.



Thanks for engaging in this thread. Your comments are insightful.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's written in so many words in the Rules, but it's helpful and a true interpretation of them:


"Never stand on into danger"


This is a correct interpretation of Rules 17 and 2.


The Rule 17 obligation to stand on does NOT require you to hold a collision course "on and on", and does not allow it. The only purpose of standing on is to cede to the give-way vessel the opportunity to work out a solution to the crossing. The purpose of your holding course and speed is simply to allow him to know where you will be, so he can avoid you.



As soon as you have reasonable doubts that he intends to maneuver, that's out the window. Now it's your turn. Standing on is not just carrying on because it's the other vessel's problem. It's always a mutual problem. You are just giving him his turn to sort it out, while being ready to take your own turn if necessary. In good time and with plenty of space left.

Well explained DH but many don't have a comfortable feel as to when that transition should take place or how to manage it.

Guides like the excellent A.N. Cockroft editions say that no closer than 3nm is when Action should take place. Ideally that should be from the give way vessel, but this is also when the stand on vessel should become proactive if nothing is happening .

At 3nm if I'm the stand on, is when I would usually call to ask their intentions.
Often, here in Asia, you don't get an answer, but they do then make an adjustment to open up CPA.

Harbour or constrained water conditions are different, the action period being much closer and if on a small craft, it does make sense to.just stay out of the way of the larger vessels.

But if I am also on a large vessel or in rhe past, commanding a Tug and large tow,.. vhf calls are normal and necessary for close quarter cooperation.

As you mentioned before, sometimes there are unknown reasons why the give way vessel has problems.

For example a tug with large tow and heavy offshore steel towing cable must always be aware of the sag on that cable, taking care not to let it catch on an underwater pinacle. They need to keep positive tension on it

This can happen in restricted waters with currents and backeddies if forced to give way and a sagging towline catching can cause all kinds of control problems .

That is why I am in favor of calling give way vessel and co-operating if in doubt as to intentions, but I do expect a reason to be given as to why?.

Commercial guys do this all the time.

What amazes me are these so called yachting expert articles that are ignorant of these difficulties as this one does.

https://www.thelog.com/ask-the-attor...-right-of-way/

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jammer

True enough in open water with little traffic.

But in many situations I do care whether the give vessel gives way. Examples have included:

- With commercial vessels the most common frustration is when I can't figure out what they're doing because they aren't holding a steady course. Lake Pepin is curved, and barges follow the curve or cut it short depending on who's in charge. Sometimes they answer the radio, sometimes not. Similarly if there's a tug trying to hook onto a tow and I can't figure out which one he's going for I can't stay out of the way

- Situations where I have selected lay lines to clear a point or obstacle, and have guests aboard, and end up short tacking to stay clear of a vessel that is disregarding the inland rules (to the discomfort of my guests)

- Light airs where my ability to maneuver out of the way of a faster vessel is doubtful or nonexistent.

- Where I am exiting a harbor in wind and current and have few good options for staying clear of shallow draft vessels trolling across the harbor entrance

Perhaps the greatest frustration is recreational fishing vessels trolling with lines out in areas with congestion and obstacles.

I do cultivate an attitude of detachment but in many cases there are consequences far beyond turning the wheel a little bit to accommodate another vessel. In some cases there are safety implications.. .

Well, sure, there are lots of reasons why you might want or need the other vessel to maneuver -- whether or not it's give-way in the situation. You can add "other traffic" to that -- probably the most common reason why you might not be able to maneuver. Speaking of which -- in busy waters a very common cause of a ship not giving way when it's otherwise give way is that he may be dealing with other traffic he's stand-on to, or he has other traffic in the way of his only maneuver.

That's the right time to use the radio, in my opinion, and request what you need. I can only think of one time in a lifetime of sailing, that a ship refused my request. Of course I avoid asking for anything without a really good reason; if I can maneuver with no problem I just do it myself without a call.

My apologies to those on here who have already heard this story, but a really good example of this was one really bad day I had in the North Sea in a terrible gale with huge breaking waves, such that I couldn't really maneuver -- we had to go down the face of the waves just so in order to avoid getting rolled (and we did get knocked down that day). This course took us directly into a busy TSS lane -- going the wrong way. At night in a F9 gale. Nightmare, right?

What I did was I sat on the radio and called each ship as it came down towards us, apologized, and requested an alteration this way or that way to let us through. Every single ship politely and instantly complied and we had no difficulties. No drama whatsoever from traffic. After a couple of hours of this, the gale abated and we scooted out of there.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If 5 isn't enough make it 10 or 15...still makes almost no difference to the pleasure boats time to reach it's destination.



Honestly, I would probably turn 30-45 degrees, so it's clear to the ship that my course is not just wandering. Hold that until I would be clearly behind the ship if I resumed my original heading and then turn back to my original heading such that it is well behind the ship and there is no doubt.

Yes, this is the point I was trying to make. If you’re going to change course, make enough of a change to definitely change the geometry AND to make your intentions clear to the other vessel. 5 degrees might be just enough to add more confusion. Is he actually turning or just wandering a bit?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I get that making a smaller correction early on yields a greater amount of clearance per degree turned than a late correction would yield, but several posters have mentioned making a 5 degree heading change very early on to avoid the whole situation. That's a great theoretical thing to do and might even work

I think most of the people who say "alter 5º" don't really appreciate what the actual outcome will be. In the OP's case, he was 5nm from the contact, so 3.5nm from the intersection point. 5º alteration would have moved him 600 yards left or right of the potential collision point - certainly not a safe margin and given the variability in speed/course of both vessels, not a certainty to avoid collision.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

. . . What amazes me are these so called yachting expert articles that are ignorant of these difficulties as this one does.

https://www.thelog.com/ask-the-attor...-right-of-way/

That article is absolutely shocking. An average of one incorrect statement about the Rules per paragraph. And written by a lawyer!

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Yes, this is the point I was trying to make. If you’re going to change course, make enough of a change to definitely change the geometry AND to make your intentions clear to the other vessel. 5 degrees might be just enough to add more confusion. Is he actually turning or just wandering a bit?

For me, if coasting in open water, when to make a course change and by how much, is often influenced by my destination, the curve of the coastline and the anticipated destination of the conflicting traffic

A lot of Coasters, simply follow a laidout series of waypoints which allow for some searoom. But as most coastlines and the destination follow a curve, they tend to continually cut inside those waypoints in order to shorten their trip time.

So making a course change to harmonize with their goals often means doing nothing as they make a series of small alterations to ease over from one side to the other to get an inside track.

That is why, if coasting, I rarely make a small course change far out at 10nm as I'm not sure of their intent

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That article is absolutely shocking. An average of one incorrect statement about the Rules per paragraph. And written by a lawyer!

Thought that might shock you[emoji16]

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I think most of the people who say "alter 5º" don't really appreciate what the actual outcome will be. In the OP's case, he was 5nm from the contact, so 3.5nm from the intersection point. 5º alteration would have moved him 600 yards left or right of the potential collision point - certainly not a safe margin and given the variability is speed/course of both vessels, not a certainty to avoid collision.

Assuming that's 600yds clear of the stern (not the bow of a 400yd long ship) and I continue to monitor the situation correcting as needed to maintain that spacing as the distance closes, that's plenty of space in restricted waters (as shown on the charts some posters have put up).

If you calculated the crossing at 5 miles, set your heading and then stopped keeping watch, that's a violation of the colregs requirement to maintain a watch and the law of tonnage.

This does bring up an issue when using AIS. Unless your computer takes into account the dimensions of the ship and location of the GPS on the ship when calculating the point of closest contact, particularly in close quarters, you still need to look away from the screen and see what's really going on. AIS is only a tool and a tool is only as good as the person wielding it.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I think most of the people who say "alter 5º" don't really appreciate what the actual outcome will be. In the OP's case, he was 5nm from the contact, so 3.5nm from the intersection point. 5º alteration would have moved him 600 yards left or right of the potential collision point - certainly not a safe margin and given the variability in speed/course of both vessels, not a certainty to avoid collision.

Unless you alter astern like I do.

Often, you don’t even need to stay off your planned course for more than a few minutes to achieve a non-event where colregs don’t come into play.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Assuming that's 600yds clear of the stern (not the bow of a 400yd long ship) and I continue to monitor the situation correcting as needed to maintain that spacing as the distance closes, that's plenty of space in restricted waters (as shown on the charts some posters have put up).

I think we have a difference of opinion. Most of the 5º proponents seem to think this small change somehow makes life easier for the poor working stiff on the bridge of the commercial ship - and they're fooling themselves. To the watchkeeper, you are still a risk of collision, your bearing will not change (at least at a rate and distance to indicate a safe pass), and ARPA will still have you near a 0 CPA. Generally speaking in open water a CPA of at least 1/2 mile is preferred. If you're going to take any avoiding action whether you're the give-way vessel or a stand-on vessel using 17(a)(ii) clause or the idea that risk of collision has not yet begun to take effect, you should still be following the spirit of rule 8:

(b)Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.
(c)
If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Unless you alter astern like I do.

Often, you don’t even need to stay off your planned course for more than a few minutes to achieve a non-event where colregs don’t come into play.

You are deluding yourself. A 5 or 10º alteration for a "few minutes" does SFA, unless you're going 600kts.