Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[Chotu]

This thread has become pretty interesting. I’m surprised so many people would just stand on in the face of an enormous container ship or RoRo, hoping they are seen.

To me, that feels like walking out into traffic knowing that you have the right of way as a pedestrian and just hoping cars will stop and not kill you. I’m a bit more cautious than that. I don’t trust other people’s intentions or actions. Not when my life is part of the equation. I will wait until there are no cars or I will be absolutely certain something like a traffic light is stopping the cars and they are indeed stopping.

If I were in the Catamaran from the original post, way before it was ever something nav rules would apply to, I would have just taken a few degrees off my course to make sure I passed astern of the huge ship. It’s very easy for me to do that compared to what it is for them to change their momentum and course.

I’m really surprised so many people would just continue along their course and demand that this giant ship changes its direction. That doesn’t fly in the Northeast United States. You are taught from the beginning to get out of the way of ferries and boats like this long before you become a stand on vessel.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Chotu

You are taught from the beginning to get out of the way of ferries and boats like this long before you become a stand on vessel.

Who teaches this? In what context? This is open ocean, not narrow channel or traffic lane.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Who teaches this? In what context? This is open ocean, not narrow channel or traffic lane.

Where has it been stated it was 'open ocean'...
The OP stated there were no obstructions within 3 miles.. to me that does not represent 'open ocean' else why feel the need to mention this.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Where has it been stated it was 'open ocean'...
The OP stated there were no obstructions within 3 miles.. to me that does not represent 'open ocean' else why feel the need to mention this.

For all intents and purposes this is open ocean

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Where has it been stated it was 'open ocean'...
The OP stated there were no obstructions within 3 miles.. to me that does not represent 'open ocean' else why feel the need to mention this.

A very good point. The OP said it was open water and we have been operating from that assumption.


If all this took place in the actual APPROACHES to Auckland harbour, then all bets are off.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

For all intents and purposes this is open ocean

Your having a larf..
That's Coastal waters..

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Who teaches this? In what context? This is open ocean, not narrow channel or traffic lane.

Everyone. It’s our boating culture.

Ferries and large ships have right of way, period where I’m from.

You try to grant some leeway to commercial fishing boats too, out of respect.

You change course well before any collision or navrules are coming into play and navigate with courtesy and respect.

As an extreme example, I challenge anyone to go into New York Harbor, Which is wide open for navigation in all directions, and assert your stand on status with the Staten Island ferry. See where that gets you. Ha ha.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

He simply complied with his obligation to stand on.
Until he felt it was no longer appropriate and chose to take action.

His stand on status in no way obligated him to continue on a collission course until the last second.
- At 5 miles out a distinct course change to go well behind the ship was well within the colregs.
- The colregs allow and encourage you to negotiate an agreed crossing (VHF, Sound Signals). The OP continued on at 9kts (around 30minutes) on a collision course without making an attempt to negotiate an agreed crossing until it was too late to do anything but rant.

[Pandor]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Everyone. It’s our boating culture.

Ferries and large ships have right of way, period where I’m from.

You try to grant some leeway to commercial fishing boats too, out of respect.

You change course well before any collision or navrules are coming into play and navigate with courtesy and respect.

As an extreme example, I challenge anyone to go into New York Harbor, Which is wide open for navigation in all directions, and assert your stand on status with the Staten Island ferry. See where that gets you. Ha ha.

I was trying to follow your logic on giving way and then you followed up with this.

You don’t try to grant leeway to commercial fishing vessels. You keep out the way of fishing vessels because that’s the rule.

And as a professional mariner, I can tell you that most commercial vessels would be happy for cruisers to just follow the rules - including standing on if that is applicable. If you choose to alter your course well in advance, so be it. But if you go into every meeting between you and a larger commercial ship with the attitude that you need to stay out of the way, you are just an accident waiting to happen.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Everyone. It’s our boating culture.

Ferries and large ships have right of way, period where I’m from.

You try to grant some leeway to commercial fishing boats too, out of respect.

You change course well before any collision or navrules are coming into play and navigate with courtesy and respect.

As an extreme example, I challenge anyone to go into New York Harbor, Which is wide open for navigation in all directions, and assert your stand on status with the Staten Island ferry. See where that gets you. Ha ha.

Places like New York Harbor are a bit special. There's usually so much traffic that something big maneuvering around one boat will cause a problem with 3 other boats, so the more nimble boats end up having to do the maneuvering. In more open areas with less boats, that's not the case and they can maneuver just fine (and typically do).

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Places like New York Harbor are a bit special. There's usually so much traffic that something big maneuvering around one boat will cause a problem with 3 other boats, so the more nimble boats end up having to do the maneuvering. In more open areas with less boats, that's not the case and they can maneuver just fine (and typically do).

OK, if that’s the case, then get in front of the ferry that goes between port Jefferson. NY and Connecticut. In the wide open Long Island sound.

In front of the block island ferry when it is on approach.

Get in front of the Martha’s Vineyard ferry.

Any of these boats will do for the test.

If you decide to press these boats, you’re going to be looked down upon.

The Staten Island ferry, someone is welcome to do that in the middle of the winter. Late in the fall. Anytime. It doesn’t have to be crowded harbor. You get in front of that boat, you don’t give way, you’re probably actually going to get stopped by harbor patrol Undergo a full homeland security investigation of your boat.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Pandor

I was trying to follow your logic on giving way and then you followed up with this.

You don’t try to grant leeway to commercial fishing vessels. You keep out the way of fishing vessels because that’s the rule.

And as a professional mariner, I can tell you that most commercial vessels would be happy for cruisers to just follow the rules - including standing on if that is applicable. If you choose to alter your course well in advance, so be it. But if you go into every meeting between you and a larger commercial ship with the attitude that you need to stay out of the way, you are just an accident waiting to happen.

I’m waiting for about 30 years for my accident to happen. Didn’t come yet. Ha ha.

But what you’re not following about my post is that we give some leeway to fishing vessels on their way home from a long couple days of work. Has nothing to do if they are actively fishing. That’s a different story. Navrules are quite clear on fishing.

And when I say some leeway, I am talking about large trolling boats that dragnets. You know. They are coming back to Harbor with the outriggers in the upper position. They are no longer fishing. They are just coming home. It was instilled in us from day one that you give these people a little bit of extra respect. Because they’re out there working. You’re out there playing in your rich man’s toy. Big difference.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by fxykty

The conditions were unlimited visibility and moderate steady breeze. We were sailing on autopilot set to AWA, with heading changes less than 5 degrees over the previous 2 hours.

Our course was 20 degrees higher than our next waypoint due to wind angle, so I did prefer to stand on if possible. Also, given the apparent wind speed, we would have been (and were) over the sail’s wind limit on hardening up.

Was the radio call left too late? Perhaps, though given the conditions and the relatively slow speeds of both vessels nothing was happening quickly. Open ocean, I would call at 12 miles or so, but with slower speeds and busier traffic, 3-5 miles usually. This time, I obviously left it later, waiting for the expected course change.

Was my course change drastic after the radio call? No, only 30 degrees at first, then curving back to port (leeward) as the ship moved past. Interestingly, there were two power yachts (15-20 metres long each) that plowed through the gap between us and the ship’s stern as we approached the wake.

Did I increase speed or course? Not intentionally, and speed by not more than 1 knot. Course by not more than 3-4 degrees.

Was it enough to throw off a clearing calculation by the ship? Possibly, but that would imply they were happy for a very close pass in front of us with our original speed. That’s the source of my ‘WTF’.

Not wanting to turn off the autopilot or having a waypoint the ship has no knowledge of suggests to me, you wanted to assert your stand on status. Now if you had called at 5 miles out and got agreement from the ship, that would be different.

As you indicated, in those conditions, you even admit 3-5 miles would be when you would normally call. You waited until there was a tiny fraction of that distance available.

30 degrees is a drastic course change...it would meet the colregs idea that a course change should be distinct to the other vessel...just too late in this case.

The ship may have used the AIS when you were 5 miles out and expected you to be a couple hundred meters behind but you increased speed and now indicate a 3-4 degree course change (not intending is irrelevant...you knew it happened and it violated your stand on status, so you should have taken action to maintain speed and course). Now should the ship have continued to make updates to the projected crossing?...probably but if you are going to claim stand on status, you shouldn't make moves that reduce the crossing clearance.

It turned out fine but it could easily have turned out worse. If you look at crash analysis, it's often a chain of multiple failures, not a single action, required to cause a crash. Any one of those links gets broken and there is no crash. There were several links in the chain that you participated in forging.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Quadrille in JB

Don’t be stupid. Head up and pass behind the commercial vessel. The outcome in a collision would definitely have you as the loser. A sunken vessel and most likely a lost crew. Get a brain. ROW or not.

Of course nobody, especially the small boat skipper, wants to get run over. We all agree with that concept so hopefully people can stop mentioning it as if it’s a great truth that has any bearing on how to interpret the Colregs.

What is being discussed is HOW to avoid that collision and always heading up or altering course is NOT the correct answer. The reason it’s not the correct answer is that the other vessel is expecting you to follow the Colregs. Just as you head up, he may well be adjust his course to avoid you and now you’re closer and once again on a collision course. Also, since a large vessel is likely to be moving at 2 or 3 times your maximum speed, if you don’t do the predictable thing you may unintentionally put him in the uncomfortable position of having to take drastic measures to avoid running down the crazy WAFI who’s swerving all over the ocean. Much better to know the rules so you know when it’s appropriate to head up or take other evasive action and when it’s appropriate to remain predictable so the other guy can alter his course appropriately before it becomes anything close to an emergency. If you have a question about his intentions regarding your crossing and would like clarification, call him on the radio and ask. If he still hasn’t adjusted his course adequately to make you comfortable and you’re getting closer and you still think there’s potential for a collision, THEN you can head up or take any other action necessary to avoid being run down. But by being spring loaded to altering your course whenever a crossing issue first becomes apparent, while undoubtedly well intended, can introduce more confusion and more danger to what began as a routine interaction between 2 vessels with clearly defined roles that are spelled out in the Colregs.

[Chotu]

I wanted to add one more thing. I’m lazy. I want to stay on my course. I don’t want to have to call another vessel. I don’t want to have to deal with other people while I am out in the water. So I don’t. Miles out, I make a tiny adjustment of a few degrees and then it is no longer a colregs situation at all.

you knock off a couple degrees, then you knock a couple degrees in the opposite direction to go right back on your course. It’s the easiest way to deal with it. And it shows courtesy and respect to the other people.

I can’t fathom the need people have to press the rules from miles and miles away from each other. It doesn’t make any sense to me what some of the people are posting here. Avoidance is the easiest thing.

The problem here is that the coal rigs don’t define a zone of action. We are all probably picturing different distances from the other boats. I Am way, way out there when I do the stuff I do. I am nowhere near the other boat. I am in a position that the tiniest course alteration puts me after of the larger vessel. So I do that. It’s way easier. And it’s the most safe thing you can do. However, I’m thinking some of the posters are a heck of a lot closer to the boat given the way they are Reasoning things out.