Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

As the professional mariners on this forum have stated over and over, they clearly prefer that ALL of us simply follow the Colregs, no more, no less.

Actually several of the professional mariners on this thread have not stated this.

I would be willing to be 9 out of 10 professional mariners would prefer pleasure craft just stay the heck out of the way...and most of the time, smart pleasure craft operators do just that.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Actually several of the professional mariners on this thread have not stated this.

I would be willing to be 9 out of 10 professional mariners would prefer pleasure craft just stay the heck out of the way...and most of the time, smart pleasure craft operators do just that.

Wrong.

Here's one that wants all vessels great and small to follow the Rules.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Picturing the Rule of Tonnage for a second.

Row, row, row your boat.

There be those times when it best to not be gently.

Do note that the person on the row boat is literally standing on it.

I think he's getting ready to jump

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Ever hear of the laws of physics...try to ignore it, and you are free to put that on your tombstone if you believe it so badly.

I think we've had this conversation before, but this post reflects a misunderstanding of what the Rules require. You are not allowed to stand on to the point where the ship can't avoid you. That does not relieve you of the OBLIGATION to stand on at a certain, earlier stage in the crossing. COLREGS 101. But you must leave off standing on well ahead of any point where physics come into play.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by chrisr

sorry : so wrong on so many levels i just don't know where to start...

cheers,

Feel free to share how purposely challenging a big ship is smart.

You might be technically right and your family might get a big check (might not depending on the full details)...you will definitely be the loser if they run you over.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Feel free to share how purposely challenging a big ship is smart.

You might be technically right and your family might get a big check (might not depending on the full details)...you will definitely be the loser if they run you over.

The point is that nobody is suggesting to 'purposely challenge a big ship' to the point of death.

It is you and certain others that keep raising this topic.

Additionally, the COLREGS expressly cover all these situations.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Wrong.

Here's one that wants all vessels great and small to follow the Rules.

I did a lot of research on this, and the results I came up with were that 99 out of 100 pro mariners agree with Lodesman.


Now many pro mariners ALSO want you to "stay the heck out of the way", but they want you to do that by the book, not by making up some ad hoc maneuvers which don't comply with the Rules. That is what they particularly hate. That means that the "staying the heck out of the way" needs to occur very early, before risk of collision arises. Once risk of collision arises, however, they want you to stand on when that is required. Otherwise how can they calculate their own maneuver? The Rules are designed to bring ORDER to the process. The worst thing you can do is just make something up.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Actually several of the professional mariners on this thread have not stated this.

I would be willing to be 9 out of 10 professional mariners would prefer pleasure craft just stay the heck out of the way...and most of the time, smart pleasure craft operators do just that.

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Wrong.

Here's one that wants all vessels great and small to follow the Rules.

And here is another one too (me).

Further, whether 'staying the heck out of the way', or 'being smart', in both cases it should still be done with respect to the COLREGS.

NOT in some random 'I make my own rules based on my (supposedly) common sense' way.

EDIT: Dockhead basically covered both these points too.

I don't know why some cruisers here (Americans?) are so adamant they know better and that they will just make their own rules instead of recognising and utilising a set of internationally accepted rules that have been refined over decades and are in fact law...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think we've had this conversation before, but this post reflects a misunderstanding of what the Rules require. You are not allowed to stand on to the point where the ship can't avoid you. That does not relieve you of the OBLIGATION to stand on at a certain, earlier stage in the crossing. COLREGS 101. But you must leave off standing on well ahead of any point where physics come into play.

At 5 miles out, he would be well within the colregs to bear off a little to go astern of the big ship. If he's worried, it might confuse the big ship, he is free to call and confim the crossing.

Yes, the colregs still apply but so does the law of tonnage if you decide to play chicken. The two are not mutually exclusive.

In a different more restricted situation, he might have to stand on but in the case described, he was foolish to play chicken. By the time he was 0.5 miles from impact, he was already in violation of the colregs.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Feel free to share how purposely challenging a big ship is smart.

You might be technically right and your family might get a big check (might not depending on the full details)...you will definitely be the loser if they run you over.

You must never "challenge a big ship". If you think you are allowed to do that under the Rules, you need to study them some more. They don't work like that at all.

Standing on is not "challenging" anyone. It is rather "holding still" and giving him temporary control of the crossing. Standing on is not only an obligation, it is a courtesy. If he doesn't take that up in good time, then you are obligated to take your own action, and to do that in plenty of time, generally still miles out, so that drama does NOT ensue.

The whole idea of "challenging" reflects a deep misunderstanding of how it works. Leave your right of way, your privileges, your "challenges" on land where they belong. Standing on is not a privilege, and you are not entitled to rely on the give way vessel's giving way. The whole system works completely different from roads on land.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

We are discussing the COLREGS here - not physics

Then why are you arguing that the laws of physics don't exist?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

The point is that nobody is suggesting to 'purposely challenge a big ship' to the point of death.

It is you and certain others that keep raising this topic.

Additionally, the COLREGS expressly cover all these situations.

The OP went for 4.5 miles knowing there was an issue and only broke off at the last minute...a lot closer to challenging to the point of death than I like to be.

Sure the law of tonnage is consistent with the colregs but it's a lot easier to remember.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Yep, Rule 8 Action to Avoid Collision is written ahead of Rule 17 Action of a Stand On Vessel, because Rule 17 only applies when there is risk of collision, i.e., a closing situation.

Wow. Just - wow.

Y'know by the logic in your world, Rule 8 comes after Rule 7 - Risk of Collision, so it only applies when risk of collision exists.

Rule 8(c) is the codification of recommendations made previously in the 1960 rules, and specifically applies to the actions of the give way vessel. It is not in any way intended the way you mean. The Rules themselves have some ambiguities - which have been mostly defined by case law. It is worthwhile to read a good guide to the Rules, to understand the grey areas. In fact one can manoeuvre "before risk of collision begins to exist", but there are nuances in determining when that is. In open water as described in the OP, risk of collision certainly would have been deemed to exist at 5 miles and the OP was correct in standing on.

[TrentePieds]

YAWN!

Bei mir, at 9 knots (OP's stated speed) you move 15 feet a second, therefore, for me, it would take two seconds to move a boat length. When I'm broad-reaching I can harden up by thirty five or forty degrees in four boat lengths without straining a gut, and THEN begin to think about touching up the sail trim, so where's the problem???

For the RoRo to move, oh, let's say four miles to Collision Point would take 20 minutes or so. So in the given scenario, there is NO RISK of collision and the THE RULES (big guilt capital letters!) have not yet come into play. You can therefore do whatever you like including hardening up :-).

Salut

TP

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You must never "challenge a big ship". If you think you are allowed to do that under the Rules, you need to study them some more. They don't work like that at all.

Standing on is not "challenging" anyone. It is rather "holding still" and giving him temporary control of the crossing. Standing on is not only an obligation, it is a courtesy. If he doesn't take that up in good time, then you are obligated to take your own action, and to do that in plenty of time, generally still miles out, so that drama does NOT ensue.

The whole idea of "challenging" reflects a deep misunderstanding of how it works. Leave your right of way, your privileges, your "challenges" on land where they belong. Standing on is not a privilege, and you are not entitled to rely on the give way vessel's giving way. The whole system works completely different from roads on land.

The story the OP provided indicated to me that he was "challenging" the big ship until the last minute when it became obvious he was going to lose to the law of tonnage...then and only then did he back down....then he got indignant that the big ship didn't honor his stand on status.

Not knowing the full picture of what the big ship saw, the big ship MIGHT have violated one of the colregs but not until after the OP violated them and pushed the situation. Luckily, he got away.