Restricted in ability to maneuver?

[smac999]

The correct term for you is a criminal. For knowingly and purposely putting others in danger.

Not having a motor is not an exceptional circumstance. That is a preplaned purposeful one. A premeditated crime.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

In many vessels you can always maintain steerage by moving the rudder (sculling), and even maintain some speed through the water this way.

From the posts above it seems like you are required to, and failure to know how and practice this technique would be "incompetent".

Sculling works well for small boats to make a minimum speed of head way. I have used that on dinghies. Would not work on a larger displacement boat.

Thank you, your response is very informative.

Generally it works but I would not say you can rely on it.

It requires you to maintain a certain speed? Where does COLREG discuss this?

Rule 17 (Action by stand-on vessel)
(a)

(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.

(ii) The latter vessel may, however, take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.

(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.

(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances at the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.

(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.

Would this apply if a sailboat is not sailing fast enough to avoid, say a fishing boat that is trawling? Depends on how fast the other boat is closing.

Lets say the sailboat is reaching at only 2 knots, should it claim it is not under command? Depends again on how fast the other boat is closing and the distance between the vessels. If 2 knots can get you clear then two knots is adequate. Would hate to be crossing a large cargo ship constrained by draft and going only two knots if they were traveling say 15 knots and just a mile away.

An engine in any conditions is also unreliable, and so accordingly can never be relied on to avoid collision.
Strongly agreed, definitely should have a sound Plan B which anticipates that a engine may fail and the wind may stop. I have had incidents where my engine has stopped working when I really could have benefited from having it, for example, when entering a crowded marina and having to then sail into my berth with strong winds blowing.


I believe in the case of the sailboat or cruisers in general there should be oars. If you don't have them you might not be able to avoid a future collision which is poor seamanship.


Motoring your boat is telling everyone else to give up on the future.
So much for freedom to breath clean air. Every day I have to hold my breath to passing boats here.

Okay, given that I am a senior executive and co-inventor of an electric vehicle drive train development company and of novel electrical energy storage devices, I too see the benefit of the electrification of transportation, so motoring to me means electric drive and an engine means combustion powering propulsion. Presently of keen issue is that the electrical power storage source is limited for boats and ships, batteries are not power dense in comparison to diesel or gasoline. But yes, sail when you can sail and motor only when you need to. Minimizing CO2 emissions is a great goal, for example, use solar power to recharge your boats house battery bank, but solar power just doesn't provide adequate power for yacht propulsion as the surface area for power conversion is constrained aboard a vessel.

The vessels which have stand-on relative to a sailboat sailing do not generally pose a collision threat in light winds in unrestricted waters. Besides fishing vessels, what cases are there?

I would differ in that assumption, a large vessel that is NUC or RAM would be a major threat to a sailboat which is limited in its maneuverability do to having modest winds. It seems you are implying relying on others to give way and avoid colliding with you when holding that perspective. Reliance on others for your safety works until it doesn't. Note, you are also responsible for avoiding collisions and allisions, one should stands-on as is required but should not continue to stand-on for too late. When you see a boat traveling fast, or especially that is bigger than your dinghy, you had better be very wary as to safeguarding your own safety. Albeit you should also be prepared to give way to small slow moving vessels so as to avoid a collision between you, which if they are small would render them to be endangered or damaged, by way of example, even a stand up board [SUP], or kayak. Be prepared to give way and get out of the way. Far too many accidents occur because boaters fail to take early, decisive and effective action. Caution is appropriate.
Safety is primary.

All the best, enjoy the purity of sailing.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by smac999

The correct term for you is a criminal. For knowingly and purposely putting others in danger.

Not having a motor is not an exceptional circumstance. That is a preplaned purposeful one. A premeditated crime.

So they have outlawed engineless vessels in Canada? Is that new law or something that has been around a while? I guess all those folks that row their dinghies ashore are all criminals.

I wonder what the statute of limitations for this violations is. I rowed ashore in the Gulf Islands back in 1990. Hope I'm not arrested next time I visit.

Or are you trying for comic relief here? I'm so confused.


I'm thinking you are overstating the danger though. Engineless 28' fiberglass sailboat vs 500' steel freighter. I'm thinking the sailboat would come out on the short end of such an encounter. Or are you thinking the sailboat will make it all the way to the stern of the freighter, get sucked thru the prop and break off a blade. Hmmmm. Could happen. Wow you're right, sailboats are dangerous to others, they should all be banned.

[Adelie]

In cased everybody missed it that was sarcasm.

[john61ct]

Yes trolling but doing so seriously.

Originally Posted by smac999

The correct term for you is a criminal. For knowingly and purposely putting others in danger.



Not having a motor is not an exceptional circumstance. That is a preplaned purposeful one. A premeditated crime.

Balderdash and poppycock.

Worth repeating, from above:

____
The fact that you have AIS yet voluntarily do not equip your boat with an alternative mode of propulsion may seem antiquated even iconoclastic, but

should not count against you.

Passage-making in even a cockleshell should be the cherished right of every sailor.

[Montanan]

Quote: In cased everybody missed it that was sarcasm.

Adelie, I am so glad you clarified that regarding your post.

Ha, I was beginning to think the moderator needs a moderator.

Perhaps, Poe's Law needs to be added to the COLREGs, so as to facilitate forum discussions regarding COLREGs. If there was a collision for every discussion / debate regarding COLREGs, there wouldn't be any insurance company willing to underwrite liability and hull coverages for vessels.


P.S. I'm experiencing some technical problems with this thread, when I click on the Quote button under a posting, a reply screen appears but with a quotation of a different thread posting than the one that I clicked quote on. Odd behavior; so I just copied and pasted your thread comment at the beginning of this post. Hmmm, Or maybe, the CruisersForum software is set up so one can't quote a post of a Moderator. Just kidding that!

Another technical issue I have noted with the CruisersForum is often when I try to insert a link, the page that allows for inserting the link, is displayed for a brief instant and then disappears and I have to click on the insert link icon numerous times before the insert link prompt pop up stays overlaying the Reply to Thread screen so that one can insert the URL and then click OK to insert or Cancel to cancel the inserting of the link. Minor technical issue but confusing.

All the best, from the last best place.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Montanan

FYI displayed below as to proper displays for vessels Not Under Command.

Note there is a distinction for when making way and not making way.

You forgot:

(g) Vessels of less than 12 metres in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.

Which makes the discussion of a becalmed 27ft sailboat a bit pointless, since the only sure way to know if he is NUC or not is to bring the VHF into use ... and once you're talking to each other, the problem can hopefully be easily solved whatever their nav status technically is.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Adelie

In cased everybody missed it that was sarcasm.

You need to label " just in jest" otherwise someone will tell you, someone, a dumb ass, will take you seriously. I guess it is true unfortunately. Being light hearted is a no no.
This whole thing has been an exercise in futility.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Adelie

In cased everybody missed it that was sarcasm.

Sarcasm:

sar·casm
/ˈsärˌkazəm/

Etymology / Origin

mid 16th century: from French sarcasme, or via late Latin from late Greek sarkasmos, from Greek sarkazein ‘tear flesh’, in late Greek ‘gnash the teeth, speak bitterly’ (from sarx, sark- ‘flesh’).

So being sarcastic may not involve humor or jest, or perhaps could be harsh humor.
Wow, I'm improving my vocabulary and learning something new.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The fact that you have AIS yet voluntarily do not equip your boat with an alternative mode of propulsion may seem antiquated even

It cost $8 for rtlsdr dongle to receive AIS.

It cost $0 to chisel sculling oar from foraged wood. This is an alternate means of propulsion.

What does it cost you (and the world) for your alternate propulsion?

Originally Posted by Montanan

Sculling works well for small boats to make a minimum speed of head way. I have used that on dinghies. Would not work on a larger displacement boat.

It does work on larger displacement boats. I can go 1.5 knots sculling my larger displacement boat. Sculling gives great maneuverability with turning strokes and is possible on much larger boats as well.

Okay, given that I am a senior executive and co-inventor of an electric vehicle drive train development company and of novel electrical energy storage devices, I too see the benefit of the electrification of transportation, so motoring to me means electric drive and an engine means combustion powering propulsion. Presently of keen issue is that the

We can agree that electric propulsion is more reliable than combustion engines, but I think it's less reliable than oars.

electrical power storage source is limited for boats and ships, batteries are not power dense in comparison to diesel or gasoline. But yes, sail when you can sail and motor only when you need to. Minimizing CO2 emissions is a great goal, for example, use solar

Electrical power storage is more than sufficient to avoid collisions.

"motor when you need to" means you never motor except to avoid collisions.

power to recharge your boats house battery bank, but solar power just doesn't provide adequate power for yacht propulsion as the surface area for power conversion is constrained aboard a vessel.

I met a boat anchored next to me yesterday. He has 7200 watts solar and ocean volt motors. He's going to trinidad; there are no sails. I have also powered my boat from electric motors in the past, and solar panels were sufficient to travel 2-3 knots without battery drain.

The vessels which have stand-on relative to a sailboat sailing do not generally pose a collision threat in light winds in unrestricted waters. Besides fishing vessels, what cases are there?

I would differ in that assumption, a large vessel that is NUC or RAM would be a major threat to a sailboat which is limited in its maneuverability do to having modest winds. It

Is this the case that the wind is so strong that the sailboat can no longer make progress to windward? Even still it can generally maintain steerage and avoid other vessels if there is wind, but it is also true and interesting to note that sail boats can be impossible to control in certain conditions despite having wind.

seems you are implying relying on others to give way and avoid colliding with you when

I don't mean to imply this. I stated in my original post it's best to call ships on radio if they seem like they will approach close. If no action from the ship, then I continue to hold course until I must turn to avoid collision, and at this point make a course change, usually tack or jibe to a course 90 degrees from ship course to make the distance as great as possible. If there is not enough wind then by sculling.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Cadence

You need to label " just in jest" otherwise someone will tell you, someone, a dumb ass, will take you seriously. I guess it is true unfortunately. Being light hearted is a no no.
This whole thing has been an exercise in futility.

You are correct: Post #108 was "just in jest". http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2956657

Post #109 on the other hand was completely serious.

I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine the nature of this post.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

It cost $8 for rtlsdr dongle to receive AIS.

It cost $0 to chisel sculling oar from foraged wood. This is an alternate means of propulsion.

What does it cost you (and the world) for your alternate propulsion? There be many factors in determining cost per kilowatt / megawatt. Electric drive is about to become less expensive than combustion drive. Albeit if the word Marine is included the cost seems to be multiple times what terrestrial equipment costs to buy, maintain and operate.


It does work on larger displacement boats. I can go 1.5 knots sculling my larger displacement boat. Sculling gives great maneuverability with turning strokes and is possible on much larger boats as well. Wow, that's a lot of sculling force, good on you, I never got my dinghy sailboats going that fast by sculling. Rowing I could go pretty fast for considerable distances but that was in purpose built row and crew racing boats, not boats with sails.

We can agree that electric propulsion is more reliable than combustion engines, but I think it's less reliable than oars. That's what the galley slaves are for.

Electrical power storage is more than sufficient to avoid collisions. Lot's of torque capacity in a motor just so long as you have the amperage. Our motor systems are designed primarily for city transit buses and medium & heavy good truck applications.

"motor when you need to" means you never motor except to avoid collisions. Or you can motor when you have current against you, or to deal with a weather window, or a place needed to be to achieve a schedule, to arrive at a favorable time [tide conditions, daylight], etc.

I met a boat anchored next to me yesterday. He has 7200 watts solar and ocean volt motors. He's going to trinidad; there are no sails. I have also powered my boat from electric motors in the past, and solar panels were sufficient to travel 2-3 knots without battery drain.

Solar capacity factors typically range from 10 to 25% of rated capacity. Achieving a rated capacity of 7,200 watts would equal about 9.6 horsepower, but do to realizing a much lower capacity factor, one is dealing with 1 to 2 + horsepower if all the solar power was used for propulsion and one was able to store power during the daylight period to use when sunsets. Got to also factor in full cycle inefficiencies as to system power conversion.

Is this the case that the wind is so strong that the sailboat can no longer make progress to windward? Even still it can generally maintain steerage and avoid other vessels if there is wind, but it is also true and interesting to note that sail boats can be impossible to control in certain conditions despite having wind. Indeed trying to maneuver directly to windward is problematic for a sailed boat, and too much wind can make things very difficult also. May need to go hove-to or bare poles.


I don't mean to imply this. I stated in my original post it's best to call ships on radio if they seem like they will approach close. If no action from the ship, then I continue to hold course until I must turn to avoid collision, and at this point make a course change, usually tack or jibe to a course 90 degrees from ship course to make the distance as great as possible. If there is not enough wind then by sculling.

: A clear and decisive and timely course change is a solid practice.

[roland stockham]

As others have mentioned I think your status should be "not under command" ie not able to maneuver your vessel rather than restricted in ability to maneuver. That generally means either resticted by opperations such as fishing, chain ferries or cable laying or operating in a narrow channel or other environment which restricts operation. In this case you are unable to carry out normal control similar to events such as rudder failure except that this is due to weather rather than mechanical failure. The correct procedure would be to display lights or day-marks for not under command and issue an all ships warning over VHF to alert shipping to your position and problems. I played tak with a commercial ship across Biscay once who kept loosing steering and was using exactly that procedure.

[Tempest245]

I"m late to this party, but I have a question. Are you becalmed in waters too deep to anchor in? If not, why not simply anchor and display a ball or an anchor light. And if concerned about traffic issue a securite .

In depths beyond anchoring ability, If you heave-to on a starboard tack, you are stand on to just about everyone except a leeward starboard tack sailboat, Kayaks etc ( and of course a Tanker) Issue the same securite to any vessels in the area. Done.

As pointed out in another forum, how many boaters today would even know what NUC and RAM shapes are. They wouldn't likely know what an Anchor ball means. AIS transmitter is helpful

[roland stockham]

As pointed out in another forum, how many boaters today would even know what NUC and RAM shapes are. They wouldn't likely know what an Anchor ball means.


This is a really important point


Who would know? Every commercial operator with a license to operate their vessel. It is part of basic training


Everyone who has done a basic course in pleasure vessel operation or read col regs. Also part of basic training


Anyone with a reasonable amount of diligence it training themselves to operate a vessel without attending formal training sessions.



I could also remind everyone that ignorance is no excuse under the law so if you cause an accident you cannot plead "who knows the law these days" as an excuse. If you doubt this try telling a traffic cop you did not realize it was still illegal to drive a car while drunk and see if they let you off!!!!


Finally remember that under the law there is no distinction between a 'Sunday sailor' in a 26 footer and a super tanker captain, as the skipper of a vessel at sea you hold responsibility for the safe operation of your vessel and adherence to all the requisite regulations (but they are simpler for the 26 footer)