Paper Charts or Just Electronic

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

That is for the lawyers, whenever I installed a very expensive and exceptionally accurate GPS Nav system in an Ag Plane so that it could direct and often control the dispensing of chemicals, I had to placard it “Not to be used for Navigation” this was because there was no STC for that particular instrument.
It was ridiculous, cause what else could it have been used for, pilot entertainment?

However in this case, it makes sense, I believe it’s trying to say that you need to look outside every so often and not just drive the plotter

Actually Canadian Coast Guard are required to use charts. Even looking around can be problematic.

I saw this from distance and could only make out the outline.

[Amapola]

We have 2 Garmin chartplotters and always follow our course on our paper charts.

[jackdale]

BTW - In Canada

Vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications issued by or on the authority of the Canadian Hydrographic Service, and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage regulations are listed in the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995 under the Canada Shipping Act, 2001.

• CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations.
• CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances:

• CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS).
• CHS Raster Navigational Charts (RNCs) meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.

For further information on which charts meet the official requirements, please see our list of CHS Official Products and CHS Licenced Manufacturers.

This is an ECDIS.

[SV Windrush II]

It amazes me that anyone with electronic charts would not be observant to what’s going on around them. When my chart plotter is on, I only look at it when I think I need to. Periodically just checking my course. When I’m in shallow waters I pay more attention to it but then my priority is my depth sounder, Otherwise I am enjoying sailing. Who stares at a chart plotter when sailing? Never heard of it myself, but I guess there must be people doing it for others to claim they are haha.

[daveball]

There are or at least there were 20 years ago areas in the south pacific where electronic charts were not that accurate. While at anchor in the harbour at Port Villa Vanuatu our electron chart had us situated about 200 yards firmly on land. The most accurate charts available for the area were very old British Admiralty charts.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

It amazes me that anyone with electronic charts would not be observant to what’s going on around them. When my chart plotter is on, I only look at it when I think I need to. Periodically just checking my course. When I’m in shallow waters I pay more attention to it but then my priority is my depth sounder, Otherwise I am enjoying sailing. Who stares at a chart plotter when sailing? Never heard of it myself, but I guess there must be people doing it for others to claim they are haha.

It’s human nature to stare at a screen.
In the helicopter I used to fly there was a screen in front that showed what the CPG/Gunner was looking at, I wish I had a quarter for everytime I saw a gunnery tape that you could see the trees slowly rising in the screen as the aircraft was descending into the trees, with the pilot “flying” the screen.

I’ve not read this, but some time ago the FAA became concerned over what was called “technologically advanced aircraft” which are GA airframes with big moving maps, integrated autopilot etc as opposed to only gauges and paper maps.
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing...l%20Report.pdf
Pilots would become fascinated with the screens and start flying the screens and not the aircraft, and of course have an accident.

Another similar example we become too dependent on technology and too reliant on it and begin to believe its infallible, when it’s not.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8977711.html

[conachair]

Originally Posted by nmccubbin

Most sailors we meet cruising are 100% electronic. We have been for 11years, cruising about 6 months per year. About 30,000 miles
When wandering all over the place, buying paper charts would bankrupt us.
Today, the best cruising charts in many areas are amateur ones available only in electronic form

Same experience, can't think of any cruisers met along the way who weren't electronic day to day, though most will likely have enough small scale charts/cruising guides to get by if everything just stops working one day. Can't think of meeting any long distance cruisers running chart plotters either, despite the cost just getting a new folio delivered must be a nightmare in a lot of the world's cruising areas. Does anyone anywhere actually buy chartplotter data for oceans and use that? Sounds pretty crazy thing to do with laptops available and much better suited.

Back to Team Vestas, with a moment on google one thing was of interest after a little while in google - it was apparently standard practice to go through the planned route on google earth to double check and have google earth data downloaded so the same check could happen with changes underway. Neither happened on the leg when they crashed. Just a few seconds check would have saved a $6 million boat. Or much slower but they had ample paper onboard available as a double check. Really not difficult in the slightest, and down to the navigator unfortunately - he must be kicking himself every day but you can't place the blame on the kit. Shoal water like that flat out wouldn't you be just a little nervous looking just at one source?

From the report, he had the detailed charts turned off >
https://www.volvooceanrace.com/stati...march-2015.pdf

146. The navigator stated that he used the ‘chart bounds’ display feature on the Expedition
system as there were not many charts along the route and they did not clutter the screen. This is
confirmed by photos taken onboard the boat shortly after the grounding. This feature is known to
experienced navigators as a trigger that a larger scale chart is available and there are potential
dangers worth investigating. Unfortunately this did not alert the navigator to the fact that there was
large scale detailed chart data available covering the Cargados Carajos Shoals and he did not zoom in
and so gain access to the large scale chart of the dangers.

[CaptFarmer]

The Coast Guard still requires commercial vessels to carry paper charts unless you have two COMPLETELY REDUNDANT, FULL ECDIS systems. They have upped the passing score on the plotting part of the Master's exam from 70% to 80%. They are trying to tell us something! We now teach electronic navigation using OpenCPN as an example first but still teach paper plotting as well! Use electronics, keep a deck log with set and drift recorded, and be prepared to use paper if necessary.

[Lepke]

I'm an old, navy trained navigator, from before electronics. I still shoot stars, bearings and ranges, all plotted electronically, but don't usually need to. Mainly to keep the old skills. I only keep a few wide area charts. I use PC nav programs and a 32" monitor and find it as good as paper charts. You can only draw on paper charts so many times, but electronically forever. I have a laptop off the boat grid as backup and several GPS receivers. I do log my position and in a complete failure can plot a course back to civilization with a little dead reckoning.

If you're really sold on paper charts, get a full size chart table and a wide format printer and have at it.

[edexter]

We always use both, for all of the reasons stated here. It is convenient to look at the paper chart to get either the bigger or smaller picture of where you are and where you are going, depending on which chart and how zoomed your electronics are - we do it both ways depending, and that's sailing around the northern Chesapeake which we both know well, and you can usually see both shores! Also, it's is easier to check your location on paper - shoot the angle to a couple of visible points as a good cross-check against the electronics, and that's a lot easier to do on a chart than an I-pad.

I strongly suggest taking some nav courses if you are going anywhere far - there are lots of schools, and the United States Power Squadron/America's Boating Club has chapters nationwide, that offer courses like Marine Navigation - that's for puttering around the Chesapeake; Advanced Marine Navigation, if you wanted to go down the coast to Florida; Offshore Navigation, if you wanted to go from here to the BVI; and Celestial Navigation, if you want to go visit the Seychelles. Plus courses in sailing, electronic navigation, electronics, engine maintenance, etc. I ran into them at the US Sailboat show a few years ago because I wanted to take courses, and joined up because the people in the group were fun, and had a huge range of boats and experience that I could learn from. You may want to check it out - https://americasboatingclub.org/educ...cation/courses .

[seadago]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Paper charts suffer from several limitations:
A. Cost for the amount of coverage.
B. Susceptibility to water damage
C. Reliability

You forgot one major drawback of paper charts: you can't take them to the cockpit with you, an open cockpit at least, so next to useless for steering and course keepig on most sailing boats. I very much doubt the number of incidents/accidents whilst navigating on paper vs ENCs is significantly different. If anything, suspect the former could be higher, just because the sheer chance of introducing human error, even by experienced sailors.

Might be worthwhile someones' time to find that out. May put the debate to rest 😊

[LargeMarge]

My vote:
Eyeballs watching the water and weather and traffic.
Current paper and verified compass as back-up.

Gadgets and gizmos, not so much.
Is this an adventure? Some seem to think this's a damp video game...

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

.

Charts are cheap!!!!! .

They are if you don't go anywhere.

Paper charts to cover our current cruising grounds would cost $3000.
To cover our intended cruising grounds probably $20,000 and much of that would have wild inaccuracies.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by nmccubbin

Most sailors we meet cruising are 100% electronic. We have been for 11years, cruising about 6 months per year. About 30,000 miles
When wandering all over the place, buying paper charts would bankrupt us.
Today, the best cruising charts in many areas are amateur ones available only in electronic form

Exactly right.

Many of the paper charts are wildly inaccurate
Those inaccuracies are then transformed to electronic
But at least with programmes like opencpn, those inaccuracies can be mitigated.

[Checkswrecks]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It’s human nature to stare at a screen....

I’ve not read this, but some time ago the FAA became concerned over what was called “technologically advanced aircraft” which are GA airframes with big moving maps, integrated autopilot etc as opposed to only gauges and paper maps.
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing...l%20Report.pdf
Pilots would become fascinated with the screens and start flying the screens and not the aircraft, and of course have an accident.

Another similar example we become too dependent on technology and too reliant on it and begin to believe its infallible, when it’s not.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8977711.html

As a working aviation accident investigator, yes, we regularly see people with big moving maps fly into things all too regularly. However, I don't see this as the big hazard for sailboats because the time/speed/distance relationship is different by an order of magnitude. Never say never, but 6 knots gives minutes to try to comprehend and possibly even stop in place at the very least, versus seconds at 60 mph or more in an environment of terrain and traffic which you can't bring to a halt and float near.

The similar hazard boating has to both cars and aviation is loss of the ability to simply understand the concepts of navigation, rather than follow an electronic instruction. This can be seen every day, by watching for drivers on the highway who suddenly cut off traffic or come to a near stop while they try to dart for an exit. Paper chart users who lose context regularly will try to go where they think a feature is, while electronic users miss things which their eyes would have picked out.

For example, in one small airplane, the pilot was flying visual equipped airplane (VFR) below a descending cloud ceiling in haze till he turned to the GPS and laid in a course to the nearest airport. Unfortunately his slightly out of date map missed the tower which had been placed on a ridge line. He wasn't the first and won't be the last. It's an easy accident to foresee happening on a boat.

The electronic aids can bring an element of safety and context, but only if NOT used as something to follow. The research and accidents both have conclusively shown over and over that pilot/driver/boater has to LEAD whatever navigation is being used and remain the controller, not follower.