New to Nav

[EricR]

Hi CF, first post here.

I’m in Los Angeles and new to sailing. I joined the Marina Sailing Club and am going through the ASA series 101, 102, 104. I’m looking forward to renting boats through the club and sailing the SoCal coast and Channel Islands.

The issue is navigation tools. Most boats in the club don’t have a nav system so it seems like I’ll need to bring my own. My question is what are my choices? I know little but it seems like at the one end of choices is a cell phone based app. The cell has integrated cell data, WiFi, and GPS which seems great. But the screen is very small for all the info to display. At the other end is a laptop which has a bigger screen but connecting to data and GPS seems laborious. And mounting a laptop in the helm seems like a bad idea. I assume there are stand alone Garman (or similar) systems. Probably all in one but costly.

My Nav needs aren’t overly complex. It’s virtually line of sight but I’d like the integrated wind forecast, map, routing plan.

What should I be looking at?

Eric

[Shrew]

Phones are small and are difficult to read in direct sunlight and/or with polarized lenses.

Tablets are a better size, but are difficult to read in direct sunlight and/or with polarized lenses.

MFD's (Multifunction Displays) are waterproof, can be read in direct sunlight and with polarized lenses. However, they are expensive and would need to be mounted in place. That would be cumbersome with a rental.

[Sam Woodbridge]

I use a iPad with navionics as back up or for quicker reference. I also have a waterproof case for the iPad.

In light of that, one problem with a iPhone/iPad or any tablet or cellphone. Is that the gps they use is not a truly dedicated gps. And I’ve found both to be a hundred or so feet off at times. Compared to my chart plotter or dedicated hand held Garmin gps.

If I was you I would “try” (as I don’t have experience doing this) a iPad without the cell service feature. Get one with Wi-Fi only and buy a bad elf or Garmin gps that can Bluetooth to the iPad for the gps.

Hope it helps and there are plenty of threads on the forums about this topic.

Sam

[ChrisJHC]

I use Navionics as follows:

On the iPad for planning and the big screen.
Synch routes, waypoints, etc to my iPhone (happens automagically).
Once on the boat, the iPad either stays ashore or somewhere on the boat where it will be safe and dry.
Keep the iPhone in my pocket and refer to it as necessary.

Note that this is only one subscription that is then shared between the devices.

Also, re Sam’s comments about the GPS on the phone/tablet not being “dedicated” - I think he might be mixing up the wifi location function that is used to get an approximate location while the GPS is sorting itself out.
Pretty sure the GPS chip on the iDevice is dedicated to being a GPS chip!
The wifi location function is also why some iPads (that don’t have a GPS chip) appear to have GPS un til they lose the wifi signal.
Wifi location can be poor, but once it “hands off” to the GPS it should be okay as long as you get good satellite signals.

[goboatingnow]

In light of that, one problem with a iPhone/iPad or any tablet or cellphone. Is that the gps they use is not a truly dedicated gps. And I’ve found both to be a hundred or so feet off at times. Compared to my chart plotter or dedicated hand held Garmin gps.

will this nonsense ever stop being promoted around the net

iphones have full GPS, end of story, they function just the same as your MFD GPS, and the newer ones can use Gallileo and GLonass as well

what an iphone does is leverage a cell connection if available firstly to speed up first fix time ( your phone will be faster then your MFD in this case ) and also they can download the ephemeris data fro cell towers.

This is called AGPS ( assisted GPS ) and it provides much faster first fix times then conventional GPS.

BUt the iphone has a fully standalone GPS just like your expensive MFD

to get a GPS in a iphone or ipad you must have the cellular version as the chip apple uses contains both the cellular modem, and the GPS unit

units with only wifi will have very poor location ability

[goboatingnow]

unless you want to buy a dedicated small portable chart plotter the next best thing is a modern cell phone , these are now waterproof and have good multi system GNSS receivers. tiy can get Navionics charts cheap as well

[Sam Woodbridge]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

I use Navionics as follows:

On the iPad for planning and the big screen.
Synch routes, waypoints, etc to my iPhone (happens automagically).
Once on the boat, the iPad either stays ashore or somewhere on the boat where it will be safe and dry.
Keep the iPhone in my pocket and refer to it as necessary.

Note that this is only one subscription that is then shared between the devices.

Also, re Sam’s comments about the GPS on the phone/tablet not being “dedicated” - I think he might be mixing up the wifi location function that is used to get an approximate location while the GPS is sorting itself out.
Pretty sure the GPS chip on the iDevice is dedicated to being a GPS chip!
The wifi location function is also why some iPads (that don’t have a GPS chip) appear to have GPS un til they lose the wifi signal.
Wifi location can be poor, but once it “hands off” to the GPS it should be okay as long as you get good satellite signals.

Thank you Chris for clearing up some of my info. I think what I prefer to say now is. Chris is right with his info and thank you. I would like to say I prefer a dedicated GPS unit for navigation such as a Bad Elf, a hand held Garmin or a dedicated GPS chart plotter.

Thanks again Chris

Happy sailing and fair winds.

[requiem]

The best choice may depend on the boat; a larger boat with a dodger, expansive cockpit table, etc. may make a tablet convenient. If there's a railing at the binnacle to which you can clamp a mount, that is also handy. But, on a smaller boat without such options, I typically find it far more convenient to simply refer to my phone. I can turn to shade it if necessary, and quickly tuck it away in a pocket when done.

Since you mention LA, bright sunlight might be a concern. That's another good reason to have a shaded space or pocket for your device to live in, so that it doesn't overheat. When away from shore don't forget to put your device in airplane mode; you'd be surprised how quickly the battery will die once you don't have good signal.

It is useful if you can sync your routes, track, notes, etc. with a laptop whether it be to ease planning or simply to review the trip after.

[Sam Woodbridge]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

will this nonsense ever stop being promoted around the net

iphones have full GPS, end of story, they function just the same as your MFD GPS, and the newer ones can use Gallileo and GLonass as well

what an iphone does is leverage a cell connection if available firstly to speed up first fix time ( your phone will be faster then your MFD in this case ) and also they can download the ephemeris data fro cell towers.

This is called AGPS ( assisted GPS ) and it provides much faster first fix times then conventional GPS.

BUt the iphone has a fully standalone GPS just like your expensive MFD

to get a GPS in a iphone or ipad you must have the cellular version as the chip apple uses contains both the cellular modem, and the GPS unit

units with only wifi will have very poor location ability

I do enjoy GoBoatingNows comments and they have always made me think. I sincerely appreciate that fact. Once again I’m thinking over what is said.

I don’t agree or disagree with what you say. I will mention where I sail in steep mountainous canyons. I have no cell receptions 95% of the time. The only GPS that is reliable to me is a a dedicated one designed to do just that and only that.

I did sail up from Washington state to Alaska with a iPad it was amazing how many times it lost a GPS signal and it still does. So does my iPhone. It losses it’s GPS signal.

The iPad was not really a death trap using it coming up to Alaska, but not something I would ever trust again. Like I mentioned my iPhone and iPad have been close to 100 feet off compared to a dedicated GPS. I use anchor pro app and it’s interesting to compare the GPS data to what a dedicated GPS says.

I’m open to any new information anyone might care to share.

Thank you - Sam

[goboatingnow]

I don’t agree or disagree with what you say. I will mention where I sail in steep mountainous canyons. I have no cell receptions 95% of the time. The only GPS that is reliable to me is a a dedicated one designed to do just that and only that.

my iphone provided extremely reliable and accurate GPS coordinates all the way across the atlantic , my iphone was spot on on a recent ferry ride across the Celtic sea to france and across the adriatic , as I used my navionics app to plot its course, no cell connection or wifi was active

What a nautical GPS or MFD GPS has is likely a better antenna , both positioned better and not shielded by your body then an iphone

but the iphone will certainly have a better GPS then any old MFD or old nmea0183 GPS, as the modern iphone can use multiple GNSS systems as well as all their respective GNSS SBAS augmentation systems

in fact the iphone 12 now uses the Chinese GNSS system as well ( Apple blocked it in iphone 11)

The GPS chipsets in the later iphones are extremely capable .

I did sail up from Washington state to Alaska with a iPad it was amazing how many times it lost a GPS signal and it still does. So does my iPhone. It losses it’s GPS signal

I presume your iPad was one with a cellular version

I have used my iphone 11 extensively at sea , I can say it never lost a GPS signal to my knowledge, it is advisable to keep in on charge all the time as the battery management can degrade the GPS system

[EricR]

Thanks for the comments. I’ve had my cellphone GPS get confused in cities around tall buildings. Maybe that’s something like the canyons. Either way nothing like that on the SoCal coast.

The only mobile chart system seems to be Garmin and that looks like a rugged cellphone with an even smaller screen.

The answer seems to be a tablet, waterproof case that can easily mount on a railing, and a battery extender.

[requiem]

Steep canyons may be similar to skyscrapers where multipath errors can confuse things. When I was in Tokyo the map app was only sufficient to provide an approximate location; I found myself using the compass app a great deal to get properly oriented.

Inside a building (and even outside) the fix can tend to wander. At work the nav app showed an HPE of 35 meters, at home it's only about 5-13 meters. Since I rarely leave the app set to always on, I also assume it may need a moment or two for the fix to stabilize when I do pull it up. (This is better for battery life, but obviously not so good for an anchor alarm.)

If you pop open the google maps app on land and set to satellite view, you should be able to get a pretty good idea of how accurate the fix is. For me in open water it's generally more than sufficient for navigation, and in close quarters I'm likely paying far more attention to things such as the depth meter and visual or radar returns.

[TrentePieds]

Eric said: "What should I be looking at?"

I would think a chart is the best thing for you to be looking at. Once you can navigate, you can for convenience's sake go to electronic gizmos, but learn to navigate before you trust to toys :-)!

TrentePieds

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by EricR

Hi CF, first post here.

I’m in Los Angeles and new to sailing. I joined the Marina Sailing Club and am going through the ASA series 101, 102, 104. I’m looking forward to renting boats through the club and sailing the SoCal coast and Channel Islands.

The issue is navigation tools. Most boats in the club don’t have a nav system so it seems like I’ll need to bring my own. My question is what are my choices? I know little but it seems like at the one end of choices is a cell phone based app. The cell has integrated cell data, WiFi, and GPS which seems great. But the screen is very small for all the info to display. At the other end is a laptop which has a bigger screen but connecting to data and GPS seems laborious. And mounting a laptop in the helm seems like a bad idea. I assume there are stand alone Garman (or similar) systems. Probably all in one but costly.

My Nav needs aren’t overly complex. It’s virtually line of sight but I’d like the integrated wind forecast, map, routing plan.

What should I be looking at?

Eric

I would start with an atlas of charts for the area,
parallel rules
pencil
dividers
and if the boat doesn't have a real compass on it then a hand bearing compass.

https://www.celestaire.com/product/r...n-to-ensenada/

If you want to come down to San Diego for a daysail or 5 I can teach you on my boat.

[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I would start with an atlas of charts for the area,
parallel rules
pencil
dividers
and if the boat doesn't have a real compass on it then a hand bearing compass.

https://www.celestaire.com/product/r...n-to-ensenada/

If you want to come down to San Diego for a daysail or 5 I can teach you on my boat.

I always plan my trips on paper charts
because the scale remains the same. On electronic charts you can
zoom in and out and it easy to get a bit confused as to distances.
Once on the water I use a late model Ipad running TZiBoat.
Spent a month roaming the Bahamas and never had any issues.
Be sure to get a “Celluar” version as it has a GPS chip.
I turn it off for periods of time because the best tool is
two eyeballs. At 6 to 8 knots once you are pointed in the right
direction you don’t need it on all the time. I always have the current
magnetic course in my memory so if things go tits up I know
what course to steer till everything is sorted.
Navigation falls into two distinct categories
1. Knowing where you are ( easy with modern GPS) otherwise not so
2. Knowing how to get to where you want to go ( also not that hard if you
know how to do it)
Cheers
Neil